Conspirator

To clarify: 17-4. Ball Resting Against Flag stick When a player's ball rests against the flag stick in the hole and the ball is not holed , the player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the flag stick , and if the ball falls into the hole , the player is deemed to have holed out, but if the ball comes out with the flag it is put on the edge of the hole for a tap in and stroke. I was in a scramble about 15 years ago, new car for a hole in one on a 215 yd Par 3. The group behind us had one of the players make a hole in one and win the car, not the case. there was an older gentleman sitting in a lawn chair witnessing the hole as an employee of the insurance company covering the cost of the new car. He never got out of his chair when the hole in one golfer came running up to the green screaming and yahooing about his new car. He pulled the flag stick and the ball came out with the pin. Then the old guy finally got out of his chair and said "no hole in one" placed ball on edge of cup and told golfer he was lying 1. One hell of an argument broke out and we even had the cops come to settle things down. But the ruling held and no car. I'm still waiting to make my first ace, but when and if I do I will take the ball out of the cup before pulling the pin.

For what its worth one of the guys I met at a scramble last week works for Sports Authority in the Golf Shop and has had several broken shafts on the Nike VR Str8 Fit Tour Driver returned to the store. From what he says all the broken shafts have been Project X shafts. They sold a lot of these clubs with the Adila VooDoo shaft and haven't seen one come back yet. So the problems might just be the tip stiffness of the Project X.

Right on the money Leftygolfer. And that's my point there really isn't much difference anymore with most of the clubs. That's why the won't give out the Iron Bryon Data. The reviews now are about sound, color combinations, silly stuff. Getting the right shaft is to me the main difference bet wen how clubs perform.

Well I'm glad we are part of that 15%. I've been in and out of this business over the years. Keep in mind some of that 85% is going to walk out with the wrong cubs because the manufacturer has a new design coming out so they give the big box store a discount on their next order that is larger than the mark down price the store placed on the clubs. Any often the Rep will spiff the salespeople $50 or $100 for every set they sell. Last week I was in a big retailer with a nice hitting room and simulator. He has this 60 ish guy trying a 7 iron on a closeout model. This guy is all excited because he is hitting that 7 19 yards longer then his current club. I did happen to point out that the simulator was set for a 9 iron. Mistake?

I play the same irons, but the CI7, I have to give the CI9s a try but the ones I have now are so forgiving and you cann really work the ball. Got the same bag and I use FYbrids and Wilson Wedges. I'm glad to see them make a come back after sitting it out for a few years. But I've always been a Wilson guy, starting back in the 60's with blades. And right now I think Wilson makes the best clubs for a fair price compared to the other brands.

Deryck I'm with you on this purse thing and how did woman's jeans start costing over $200? The only problem with complaining against this stuff is that it's always tied to our nooky.

Yes I agree, but having correct data can help you find that right club a little faster. But I've always played what looked best to me at address, gave me confidence and results.

How do you know I'm missed by 5,000 miles? But thanks for the correction. And you are correct weight and location determine center of gravity. But don't wonder why it takes another year to find the next best place?

As stated in the article, and many of the posts here, a big factor is the economy. Groceries or Golf, of course my choice is Golf, but it’s not really a choice anymore. My business has slowed down so has my cash flow, gas over $4 a gallon, yada yada, but it all comes down to I have less discretionary dollars in my pocket. And most courses have raised their rates to meet their budgets because of the fall of players. $50 to $70 to play what a one time would be considered a well maintained muni course. Just at $50 on a weekday for 18 and a cart that’s $2.77 a hole. But when you do get out to play, and I’m usually a single or a twosome, seems like always the other players want to play the tips. And yet at best they are hitting 185 yard slices into the next fairway. Then you have the foursomes that have to drive to each golfer’s fairway hit and then off they go to the next one as a group. I keep a bunch of range balls in my cart; I always give them 2 warnings. If they can’t figure out how to play quicker I just start driving range balls at them as soon as they are approaching their 2 nd shot. I also keep a Louisville Slugger in the big side pouch of my bag. And yes when these punks drive back to get in my face to kick my old 62 year old ass, the bat is a good deterrent. But there were a few times I had to use it. Word gets around you are that crazy groups in front seem to play faster, especially when the starter warns them. Just a few simple rules that are enforced along with adjusting fees to match up with the economy could save the game. First the starter should give each golfer a colored card the fits in a slot in the front of the cart that is the same color for the set of tees they must use. That could be established by your published handicap that is available at each course. And if don’t have a handicap, which means you aren’t interested in supporting this game, you play the white tees. Most courses here are red front, white regular men, and black or gold tees for the tips. There is a very exclusive private club that went bankrupt with this economy. They have unlimited golf and tees for $400 a month. But they have 6 sets of tees for each hole. It’s a nice mountain course, yet everyone still plays the tips. For most of us the tips make par 4 into a bogey 5. Another suggestion is no marking the ball on the green. The farthest out putts first and continues putting until he holes out. That alone would take 45 minutes off a round of 18. The other thing that would help slow play is getting real Marshalls on the course. Almost all the courses have some very old fart that thinks his only job is to drive the course and wave at people. They are too feeble or afraid to confront the slow players. Come to think of it maybe I and my friend Mr. Louisville should apply for the Marshalls job. I would guarantee you a 3 hour or less round any day of the week. No 6 foot wide holes and hand throw outs from sand traps will not improve the game it will ruin it. Based on the rule of supply and demand we need lower fees along with enforcing the slow player rules and people will come back to the game. I started playing at 12 at Harding Park in San Francisco, and the first day my dad took me out for my first round I was scared to death I’d ruin everybody’s day with my bad play. My Dad gave me one bit of advice as we walked to the first tee box, “It doesn’t matter to others how you play as long as you play fast and keep pace with the rest of the group. And you’ll never make an enemy on a golf course even if I you can’t brake 120.” I still live with that advice and play my game that way, but thank God I do break 120.

Just a question to all us golfers, and please let’s get some feedback going. Isn’t it time to cut through the BS and demand that Golf Equipment Manufactures and Golf Publications stop lying to us on the data we use to make a purchase decision on their very expensive equipment? There was a time that all the results of how a new ball or club performed was published data from a very reliable and consistent golfer, Iron Bryon. Just today I saw an ad on TV how the new CG16 Irons were being hit by an Iron Byron and outdistancing 3 other named Brands. In the ad it was stated you could see the results of the testing at: http://www.clevelandgolf.com/US_cg16_long_results.html . Finally I though, real Iron Byron Data not a bunch of amateur golfers results or opinions. So at that site I watched the commercial again and it also showed graphically all the length and dispersion of each hit, but none of the shots were by Iron Byron as the commercial leads you to believe. There is a TEST PROTOCOL link so I pushed it to get a handle on how the testing was done. It was a letter from Golf Laboratories in CA. None of the data used n the commercial was done with a mechanical hitting machine like Iron Byron. I ask that you look at the commercial and also the TEST PROTOCOL on line for yourself. All the balls were hit by amateurs who warmed up with a CG16 prior to the test and the golfer could declare any hit a mishit and it did not count in the survey, basically as many Mulligans as you wanted. But no Iron Byron was used in the testing data from Golf Laboratories, but that was what you were to believe from the TV commercial. I could go on with years of data on false or misleading golf advertising data. My favorite is that the Center of Gravity is 10% lower than last year, which is what they may have stated for the last several years. At this rate the center of gravity must be somewhere in China.

Wood shafts was the only choice until 1979 when TaylorMade introduced "Metal Woods". The Big Bertha from Callaway a few years later became the Metal Driver that really started the conversion to metal vs. wood. There our some that will say I'm crazy but for the average amateur golfer, total distance really hasn't changed much from the combination of a sweet spot hit with a wood driver and the balls that we used in the late 70's early 80's vs. what we get from a 460 Titanium Driver with a modern 2 or 4 piece golf ball. I’m talking your typical 75 to 85mph club head speed golfer, not you 110+mph musclemen. You had to hit the sweet spot on the old wood drivers because the face size was so small it was really sweet spot or a topper, pop up or outer club toe hit or a shank hit. And due to the fact they had a metal sole plate a topper would always cut your ball, or what we called a smiley. Ping didn’t use Persimmon wood instead they followed the cavity back concept used on their irons and transferred it to their woods. Pings were laminated sheets of wood, with a very large hole bored in the very center of the sweet spot and behind the plastic screwed on front plates. They were also much larger than any Driver at the time and so there was a lot of forgiveness in the larger face. Today’s metal drivers are larger, lighter and longer which helps all of us. Bu what helped us all, especially the beginner to intermediate player is there is very little side spin on today’s metals. At worst today a new players slice will put him on the outer rough of his fairway. With wood and the older design balls it was not unusual to see a slice or hook that would be played from the extreme rough of an adjoining fairway. There are many club builder that will refinish a wood driver and bring it back to looking like the day it was new. I believe both Golfsmith and Golfworks offer that service and also for irons. If you are having a club refinished to display not play tell you club maker it can save you a few bucks vs. a refinished driver that will be used in play. The best drill for finding the sweet spot on a driver is to use an older original and smaller metal driver. You can’t miss the sweet spot by an inch and still see the ball flying down the range with the smaller older metals.

I had a set of new goosenecks I bought in 92. As mentioned it was the rage back then for cavity back forged iron blades. Sort of a step up for the golfer who's game was almost good enough to move on to blades. For those of us that had no chose but muscle back blades when we first learned the game, the cavity back cast Pings were a God send. Half the folks playing golf today might not be playing at all if we still had only blades. With blades there was zero tolerance on a shot that missed a very small sweet spot. Goosenecks were the unconventional looking of the forged cavity backs, hogan's Edge were very popular. But the Goosenecks really were the most forgiving of he lot and they were the easiest to get up in the air instead of the worm burners the other designs produced. I think the reason they launched so well was that most of the mass and weight of the club was at or under the equator of the ball. Same theory used today for game improvement irons. I had my goosenecks stolen just a few years back, I used them every now and then just for the rewarding feeling of a good swing. I always used Wilson Staff Golf Ball and still have a couple boxes of WS wound balls. There is no better feeling in golf then hitting a wound ball right on the sweet spot of a forged blade, and there is no worst feeling than missing that sweet spot.

Fairway_CY - Good catch on my typo. They say the legs go first,true, then the mind, I'm finding that true also. The good thing about contradicting yourself is you always win both sides of an argument or debate.

I have a good friend who reps in the golf industry so other than his ability in getting me last years $900 irons for $175 (new), he is a good source of information. Yes some brands of range balls are a bit lighter, all have a dimple pattern for a low trajectory. Limited flight is the goal, shorter ranges equate to lower upkeep costs. However for those here that have said range balls have low compression are completely wrong. There is no range ball with a compression lower than 98 and most are over 100 to a high of 120. Back in the day when 2 piece balls came out we had two choices 90 or 100 compression. I guess somewhere along the line some average male duffer found a womens 2 piece 80 compression ball and saved it for a water hole. When he finally used it on that water hole it traveled 10 to 15 yards farther than his 90 compression ball. The average amateur male golfer has a Driver swing speed of 84mph , PGA player average is 117mph (Tiger 130?). So very fast 100+mph amateurs will get the most distance out of a range ball not a slow swinger. My range uses Srixon 83 compression one piece balls, 465 dimples. I hit a 5 iron with these balls about 110 yards on the range. On the course using a variety of whatever is on sale cheap,but soft low compression balls, my 5 iron is 160 yards. I have a slow tempo and slow swing speed due to age 62 years old and shoulder surgery. Irons have no trampoline effect like drivers, they just transfer energy and the first factor to distance is compressing the ball and the corresponding rebound of the ball return back to round. I'm pretty sure for most of us slow to medium speed hitters there maybe absolutely little to no compression of the ball and hence no rebound effect. Also the compound used on range balls are much tougher than an average ball, after all range balls get hit more often and are mechanically handled. The other reason for the durability is the secondary market. My range gets new nice shiny yellow Srixon balls every 6 months, they get a trade in price on the current balls to help offset the new purchase. Those balls go right up the road to 2 or 3 other ranges, that have bigger buckets for less money and the mats look like linoleum. Here is a link that compares range balls note the club head speeds for the ranges listed http://www.srixon.com.my/balls.asp?sec=ball&id;=9 . There was a time 20 years ago 150 yards approach was a 8 or soft 9 for me, age and injuries are a bit*h on your game. But I have learned to just go with a higher club and to hell with ego. My 21 handicap will drop as I get my shoulder back to normal, but I now have a very limited turn so I'm learning to use a more vertical plane, tempo is the key to that type of swing. And my mind still has my body trying to keep the tempo when I was 35. All I can say is thank God for Hybrids and the newer shaft technology.