RadarNinja

Caddies know their players, pretty silly analogy. This thread, apparently, is about playing vicariously through someone else. I just don't understand the logic of analyzing strategy when it doesn't apply to your own game. I certainly know how I would approach that situation, but can't speak for anyone else... Risk/ reward might mean something different to different people.

It's no different than soliciting advice from a playing partner who hits the ball 30 yds shorter than me on what club to pull off the tee... Although well intentioned,it's almost never correct ( for my game) .

But you don't know anything about that players skill level. That's why I said lay up to that players comfortable yardage( assuming they have one) regardless if its 100 or 20 yds. No one can speak to how a different player should strategize a hole. But very few players get home from that distance, and most posts suggest playing cuts/ draws whatever and going for it. If score is the goal, going for it isn't yielding the lowest score for the amateurs, although a bit over optimistic, who post on this site.

I understand the question fine... A lot of responses were a bit unrealistic IMO. I guarantee that the stats would show a lower scoring average if most ams laid up. 235 is low % unless your advanced

But you see 10 cappers hitting 235 cuts at will into the wind.... Lol

Yea... Statistically most if not all of you low double/ high single digit caps are going to miss the green from 235 anyway. There's no ideal play, as Hacket put it, very dependent on your individual skill level. I bet the scoring average on the hole would be significantly lower if most put away the 3-wood/ hybrids and laid up to a comfy wedge distance. I see a lot of thinned/ topped/ swipey fairway woods ending up in bad shape....

Yep, problem is terms like 'closed' and 'open' are too vague. A proper draw is hit with a face closed to your path but still open to the target. If everything used target as a reference point a lot of misconceptions like terms 'push draw' or 'pull fade' would be cleared up. Instead body orientation gets thrown into the mix which adds to and creates confusion.

Simple answer.... Point the club face at address where you want the ball to start and swing right of that to create the draw effect. How you achieve ' swinging right' depends on you, but can be achieved fairly easy by aiming your feet, hips and shoulders that direction. This method will feel like your face is just slightly closed to your stance,but still right of the target. Make a normal swing and you don't need any hand rotation/ manipulation to get the ball starting right and drawing back at the target.

Plenty of good players have a hard time keeping a perfectly straight left arm at the top so it's not really a big deal if your wrist angles don't break down in transition. Often swings that get too long lead to throw away and casting from the top. A shorter compact swing can make it easier to consistently deliver the sweet spot to the ball.

All depends on the severity of the miss (i.e location). Yes you can still get gear effect curve even with player's irons. It's not severe but you have a face open to the path and still negative spin axis ( draw). Bulge does help lessen the effect but the starting direction of the ball's flight and the amount of curve or axis tilt depends on how much face deflection occurred and what the actual face angle is at max compression.

I'd be more than happy to post some Trackman data showing gear effect...but don't have the time to conduct a 'test' to see impact location. There'd also be no reason why i'd 'falsify' data...there's nothing for me to gain by posting objective observations..lol. To answer your last question, no...can't tell you impact location, it simply calculates the deflection that happens at the moment of maximum compression or deformation of the golf ball. So the face angle measurement might be several degrees closed after compression but not necessarily at initial contact. It's able to calculate this angle by directly measuring the launch direction and then factoring in club head speed and path, but it's not a direct measurement.

Yes... It's subtle and hard to notice unless, like you stated, hit way toward the heel or toe. I assure you it does happen quite frequently even with irons to some extent.

Great post Randall. My point was that I see face and path numbers daily that produce ball flights that don't match the D-Plane model. I'd say realistically I see as many or more shots with both irons and driver that produce some degree of gear effect than shots that can apply to face and path differences. Phil says it's no big deal, but I disagree because even instructors who 'understand' the new ball flight laws could easily assume a path issue based on the shot shape. I know because it happens to me all the time. We can't see the 3-D path of the clubhead with our 2-D eyes and can only generalize face angle based on the starting direction of the shot. I don't see how any instructor could accurately determine cause and effect without understanding gear effect and impact location on the face. Like I said initially, it's pretty easy to see a clear toe or heel hit, but an 1/8" off center?

That may very well be true for you, but for the majority of amateur golfers their face and path with the driver don't match and hence the wild crooked shot that typically slices. Angle of attack and loft don't have much to do with controlling face angle, angle of attack does impact path slightly...but the reason it's easier to 'square' up the face of a wedge has more to do with the fact that you're closer to the ball with a shorter club that doesn't have to travel as far. Path isn't 'downward' either but measured horizontally at impact, I think you're confusing angle of attack with path, but the topic was relating to catching the sweetspot so i'm not understanding the point.

Not sure i'm following you...are saying it's harder to square up a wedge vs. a driver? I'm not sure I agree.... because with a wedge when your face and path don't match each other the ball still tends to still fly relatively straight because it's harder to tilt the ball's axis. With driver, all it takes is a slight differential between the face and path and the ball will curve significantly. I find it easier to square the face with a wedge because the club length is shorter and doesn't travel as far along the arc path.