eich41

15 Tiger isn't and won't ever be as good as his prime (which was completely dominant). Add in the fact that the tour is full of young talent and getting deeper every year while Tiger ages, and I don't think he catches Nicklaus. That being said, I think at some point he picks up another Major along the way.

I'll reiterate that if this is probably your only trip to HH, play Harbour Towne. I went for a long weekend for a wedding, and only got in one round at the PD RTJ course (which is a nice track). My wife and I weren't overly impressed with HH as a whole, and didn't plan on going back. I really regretted not playing HT, but wasn't really willing to make a trip back just to play it. Luckily fate gave my wife a conference to attend last year (and this coming year as well) that picked up the tab for a return trip, which allowed me to get back and play it. Definitely glad I got a chance to play it. As I said, I wasn't overly impressed with HH as a whole (it's okay just not an easy place to get to from where I live, and IMO not as good of a value of other places we visit), but Harbour Town is one track I'm glad I've played.

Belvedere is a nice track, but it's not close to Arcadia. It's about a 2 1/2 hour drive with no slow traffic. There's just not a good way to get there from Arcadia. Also if you were going to go to Charlevoix, I'd just say go another 25 minutes and play Bay Harbor, which is probably the second best golf "experience" in Michigan behind Arcadia (Public courses anyways). Or save yourself an hour and a half of driving and just play Lochenheath in Traverse City. Crystal Downs is the best course in Michigan, and rivals anything else in the country (it's routinely listed in the top 10 tracks in the nation. However, it's impossible to play unless you know a member. It's pretty much as private as private gets in Michigan. Kingsley Club is also a great one, and a little easier to access but still private. Other courses of note in the area: Manistee National - Cutter's Ridge is a pretty nice course that's on your way to Arcadia. A lot of people will pair this with Arcadia and play 36. Crystal Mountain has free golf this year from 12-3. I forget the details, but I believe it's M-Th, 12-3, on their Mountain Ridge course which is a decent track. A little hike from Arcadia, but not too bad (45 minutes to an hour). Heathlands in Onekema is an okay track. It should be noted that none of these courses even remotely begin to compare to Arcadia, but are solid tracks at reasonable rates that can be played along with AB. Cutter's Ridge is definitely the best of the group.

Are you implying that it was a conspiracy to keep him in it?

Again I understand your position, but I disagree with it. Tiger did not know that they had ruled that it was not an infraction (incorrectly) before he signed. I understand that they didn't bring it up with him before he signed because of this, but where our positions diverge, is that I believe that it's ultimately the player's responsibility to ensure that his card is correct, not the rules committee. By not asking for verification (at which point they would have either told him they reviewed it and he was fine (incorrectly) or they would have talked to him about it and got it right), he didn't make the proper effort and should have been DQ'd. At this point it doesn't really matter anymore unless he makes a big run tomorrow (which isn't out of the question).

And IMO it's ultimately up to the player to both know the rules, and ensure that their scorecard is correct before signing it. And I feel that because Tiger never brought it up (not that he was aware of the infraction, but that's irrelevant) he didn't make the proper effort. At the end of the day, it is the player's responsibility, and while it would have been an unfortunate and honest mistake, it warranted DQ. Fortunately for TW, it was brought to the committees attention before he signed and they incorrectly wrote it off. It's the fact that they didn't at least discuss it with him prior to signing that allowed him to avoid the DQ. Had that call came in an hour later, he'd be gone.

Fair enough, but you can see why despite what the committee ruled, there are going to be differing opinions on this. It would have been much different if Tiger had been incorrectly informed by an official that there was no infraction.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but again, the press conference I saw earlier today with Fred Ridley, he stated that they did not say anything to Tiger prior to him signing his card. They received a call from a viewer, and investigated the incident while Tiger was still on the course on 18 (as stated in the press release) and found nothing wrong (which of course was incorrect). Then it never came up again until his post round interview, which was after he signed his card. If you go back to our original exchange on page 41 that's what I was asking you. And you'll see that my post says that if it had came up and he was incorrectly informed that it was okay, then the two stroke penalty would be the right call. If it never came up, then he should be DQ'd because the onus is on the player to make sure that his score is accurate. That's why I asked you where you had heard that he was informed of it before his signing. That's the key point to this whole thing, is whether Tiger was incorrectly informed or not. If he never even asked, and it never came up with Tiger, than by rule he should have been DQ'd. What Ridley was saying is that they missed it and it's not Tiger's fault. What I'm saying is that Tiger never made a proper effort to ensure it was correct as he should have. It was an honest mistake, but guys are DQ'd all the time for the same thing. Three guys have been DQ'd already this year for the same thing, why didn't they get the pass? EDIT: I also heard one of the commentators mention that if the viewer had called in an hour later, Tiger would have been DQ'd as he only avoided the DQ because the rules committee screwed the pooch when they had a chance to get it right before he signed and failed to even discuss it with him. So in a way, the viewer calling when they did ended up saving him.

Another classy post. Keep it up buddy, you're on a roll!

Back to the discussion of actual golf, tomorrow should be an exciting day. Lots of good storylines, and lots of guys in contention going into Sunday. I think Snedeker has to be the favorite. I liked him to win it but didn't take him because he had struggled since coming off that rib injury. But he can putt and that's what it's going to take to win tomorrow. I think anyone -3 or better has a shot (-2 if they can get hot early). Wouldn't be surprised to see Kuchar in the mix at the end of the day. There are a lot of unproven commodities at the top of the leaderboard (Cabrera excluded) and I'm looking forward to what happens tomorrow.

Does that include people who couldn't maintain a civil conversation and told others they were ****ing blind? And people who claimed that something was in the official press release that wasn't? Just want to make sure we're all on the same page here.

He admitted to it when he said he dropped a few yards back from his original spot. Now he may not have known he was breaking the rule, but that's admitting it. If you think that 33-7 applies here, then nobody should ever be DQ'd for signing an incorrect score card again, unless you can prove that they did it purposefully.

Agreed, he didn't realize he was breaking a rule when he did it. HOWEVER, it's irrelevant in terms of whether he should be DQ'd or not. Guys are DQ'd for incorrect scorecards all the time, but they didn't do it on purpose either.

Exactly. The 33-7 provides for exceptions for violations that cannot be reasonably discovered prior to signing the card. Examples: Brushing a few grains of sand in the bunker, touching a loose impediment in the backswing in the hazard, etc. Not taking a drop 3 yards from your original lie. I'd be curious to see a poll with people's opinion on this along with whether they've played competitive golf before (beyond a Tuesday night rec league or the Sunday four man scramble). I would wager that those who have played competitive golf would be more likely to feel he should have been DQ'd while those who have only golfed for recreation would probably be more likely to feel just the two stroke penalty was the correct call.

Which is why he should be DQ'd. It happens all the time. Three guys have been DQ'd this year for signing incorrect cards. Do you think they knew that they had committed an infraction they left off their card? Of course not, but they made a mistake and the penalty for violating that rule (mistake or intentional) is DQ. This should be no different.

It's the PLAYERS ONUS TO ENSURE THAT THEIR SCORECARD IS CORRECT PRIOR TO SIGNING. Tiger violated a very basic rule and failed to apply the appropriate penalty shots, and then signed an incorrect scorecard. It's the player's responsibility to call infractions on themselves and ensure their card is correct before signing. Tiger did not know that they had reviewed and ruled that there was no infraction at that point. Therefore it doesn't absolve him from having to verify it was correct. Even if he didn't intend to break the rule, or didn't know the rule, or didn't realize he broke the rule is all irrelevant. The only justification would be if Tiger had asked for verification before signing and was incorrectly informed that he didn't break the rule by a rules official. In that case, he would have tried to verify his score and been incorrectly informed by an official. However he didn't do that. Whether he knew the rule, intended to break the rule, etc. doesn't matter. What matters is that he violated a rule, didn't apply the penalty strokes and signed an incorrect card. That is automatic DQ.

This is the crux of the argument that many seem to be missing. It was just explicitly stated that Tiger never brought this up for clarification. Therefore he should be DQ'd for signing an incorrect scorecard.

The logic is that this happens ALL THE TIME ON TOUR. There have been 3 DQ's on tour already this year for incorrect scorecards. Do you think those player's intentionally signed incorrect scorecards? Of course not, they just made a mistake. My logic is that it's Tiger's responsibility to ensure his card is correct before signing it. If there was any question over the drop, he should have asked for clarification from the officials. He did not do that. Hypothetically if he had asked, and was then told he was okay, it would be the committee's fault for giving him an incorrect ruling and the two stroke penalty would be the correct call IMO. However, since that never happened Tiger simply signed an incorrect score card because he violated a rule and didn't take the penalty. By rule signing an incorrect scorecard is automatic DQ. It's happened 3 times on tour this year, why didn't those guys get a free pass?

The rules committee chair clearly stated that it was NOT discussed with Tiger prior to him signing his card. They did regret not bringing it up to him however. However, it's the onus of the player to ensure they sign a correct card, not the committee. As I said earlier, had he asked for a ruling prior to signing and they said, "We reviewed it and you're okay" then the two stroke penalty would be correct. However they were very clear in that presser that this never happened, and that your information of him being told by the committee that he was fine while playing 18 also never happened. Therefore he signed an incorrect scorecard and should be DQ'd, just like many have before. Rule 33-7 is for infractions that couldn't have been reasonably discovered prior to signing a scorecard. That's not the case here, as he egregiously violated a rule (one of the most common and basic rules for that matter) to gain an advantage. The committee dropped the ball by not discussing it with him, but at the end of the day it's not their responsibility anyways, it's Tiger's and he failed to ensure the accuracy of his scorecard and therefore, by rule, should be DQ'd.

No some people just want the rules and penalties to be enforced, not just arbitrarily enforced depending on who is involved. Perhaps the three other gentleman who have been DQ'd this year for signing incorrect scorecards should have been given a pass as well? Or maybe Blayne Barber who DQ'd himself from Q-school because it's the right thing to do? Naw let's just decide who gets DQ'd and who doesn't depending on the tournament, who the player is, etc.

Tiger was never told that his drop was okay by any rules official prior to his signing of the card. The presser with the rules committee was just on GC. The drop never was discussed or brought up by Tiger prior to his signing of the card. Only once he made his comment in the interview was it reviewed again. That means that Tiger signed an illegal card and should be disqualified. If he had brought it up and been told by a rules official or member of the committee that there was no infraction, then the two stroke penalty would be correct. However, the president of the rules committee was just on and stated that it was never discussed with Tiger prior to signing. Where ever you got your info about him being told on the 18th hole is wrong. At the end of the day it's the PLAYERS responsibility to verify his card and any questions about his scoring prior to signing his card. Not a viewers, not the rules committee, not his caddy's, but the players. I have no axe to grind with Tiger, but he should be DQ'd based on the facts that we now know.

But Tiger did not know that. He never brought it up. He signed for the wrong score card. Had he asked the committee for clarification before signing and they said it was fine, the two stroke penalty would be the right one. However, we know that isn't the case, and he signed for a wrong card. That is a DQ point blank period.

It was officially acknowledged just now by the rules committee that Tiger did not bring it up prior to signing his card, and the rules committee did not discuss it with Tiger until after he said he took the extra yards in the interview post card signing. Tiger should have been DQ'd as it is his onus to ensure his scorecard is accurate prior to signing, which he OFFICIALLY had not done. This is absolutely the wrong call.

Really a bigot? LOL. And your argument is inferring that Jack Nicklaus took several illegal drops in his major wins to gain an advantage? It's not about a hatred for Tiger, it's about respecting the rules of golf which have been tarnished today. Would you be calling Chamblee and Faldo douche bags if they were arguing over whether Kevin Na should WD because of an incident like this? You're mad because it's Tiger.

Yes, many times that's exactly where the drop ends up. That's the rule. You play it as close as possible. And Tiger even admitted that he took the extra distance to get a better shot and gain an advantage.