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Everything posted by Williamevanl
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Oh good, this guy is another one :P. So many people have done this. I should write a book some day about all the delusional golfers who 'really went for it' at some point and came up woefully short. Dan is coached by the a guy that holds the world speed golf record, ie can shoot 65 in 45 minutes! Yes I know everybody thinks they know how to do it differently or that there is something about them that will make a difference. This isn't true, to avoid this being to long winded there's a quote out there floating around from Rory's dad about how they put Rory in a tournament at x age and he shot mid 60's or whatever and beat everyone, his dad said "That's when we realized we had something here." I think this is what separates the best players of the game, they practice sure, but they quickly find that they are good, really good better than just about everyone they can find. This is something that they discover not train themselves into. The game comes easy (relative to everyone else) and their practice continues to make them better motivating them to practice more. The consistently improve where others do not, most couldn't even tell you why. They 'find' themselves in this position, realize what they have.
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Crazy post, you didn't even wait until you started shooting mid 80's like everyone else... :P I'd recommend checking out this site: http://thedanplan.com or http://mygreenjacket.com Everybody does the same thing in golf, you put in a little time and quickly reach a level or proficiency that gives the illusion that the progress will continue. Unfortunately it doesn't. (laughably, you aren't even here yet). At this point you can start practicing 6 hours a day every single day for years and not get any better, or hardly get any better. (as Dan is doing). Practice at some point can actually make you worse, but don't take our word for it, go after with everything you've got. Humbling isn't even the word for it, maddening is closer.
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Lot of excuses about the equipment... Played another tournament, shot: 92-82 shot +30 over. Also, as I predicted several months back (when he was a 5.9) , it looks like his handicap should be 7.27 with the next revision. This will ultimately be about a 1 index gain in the last 8 months. last 20 scores: T Date Score CR/Slope Diff. AI 9/12 83 71.4/141 9.3 H 9/12 81 71.1/135 8.3 H 9/12 86 71.1/135 12.5 T 9/12 82 69.9/123 11.1 TI 9/12 82 69.9/123 11.1 T 9/12 90 69.9/123 18.5 TI 9/12 90 69.9/123 18.5 AI 9/12 79 71.7/123 6.7 AI 9/12 81 73.1/136 6.6 AI 9/12 78 72.0/128 5.3 AI 9/12 80 70.0/123 9.2 H 9/12 79 71.1/135 6.6 T 9/12 85 72.4/135 10.5 T 9/12 86 72.8/136 11.0 H 9/12 84 73.2/137 8.9 H 9/12 85 71.1/135 11.6 AI 9/12 80 72.0/128 7.1 H 8/12 82 71.1/135 9.1 H 8/12 82 71.1/135 9.1 AI 8/12 78 71.9/137 5.0 Writing is on the wall...
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I say almost certainly not. This is has got to be the most tired thing in golf. Everyone starts playing sees drastic improvement and thinks that given their current rate of progress they should be scratch soon. There are a bunch of blogs online of other people doing this, the most famous right now is thedanplan where the guy quit his job several years back and practices golf full time. He shot 35 over in his last two day tournament. He carries an alleged 5.6 handicap however. Mygreenjacket was another good one, the guy was coached, played/practiced all the time got down to low 80's like everyone does (as an average) and stayed there forever (also like just about everyone does.) So the story goes, take up golf, shoot 116, keep playing and practicing quickly break 100, then 90 and maybe even 80, Get really optimistic about (committing yourself to golf), or really going for it just to ultimately realize that you aren't really getting any better at some point. I would just say it expressed best in this way, it is far more difficult (or requires a lot more talent) to get from a 8 handicap to a 4 than it was to get from a 35 handicap to an 8. Getting from a 4 to scratch is likely 4X as difficult as getting from an 8 to 4. So for fun lets say it takes 4 units of effort to get from a 35 to an 8, 16 units of effort to get from an 8 to a 4 and 64 units of effort to get from a 4 to a scratch. Your talent and practice has allowed you to get 6% of the way to scratch.
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I agree that he's certainly not anywhere near a 5 handicap, the guy shot 35 over over the course of two days! On his home course!
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Dan participated his first tournament with a cut (Pacific NW Men's mid-am), here are the results: Hopefully he can turn it around tomorrow.
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Lovinitall, again I think you provide great posts but here's my reasoning. (It's late but I'll do my best :) )) BTW I wanted say some stuff about course ratings and being way over that for a given handicap but let's skip it. I think the learning curve of golf is obviously asymptotic, ( I suspect most would agree with that to varying degrees) You can imagine it looks something like this: This learning curve will be different for all people, a professional golfer might have had a learning curve that looked more like: The point is that we don't have to 'wait for the finish line' to gauge the progress in anything that becomes increasingly difficult as this is not linear. It becomes exponentially more difficult as you approach scratch (hence asymptotic curve) so this doesn't have to be guess work. If we had 1000 people we could eventually get to a place where we could gauge (roughly) where each person would be after so many hours given this asymptotic regression. When I took a crack at estimating Dan's progress at 3000 hours as being a 6.0, I just started plugging his scores into Excel to see where we were headed. That curve, however, doesn't put him anywhere near a plus handicap at the end of this thing (relative, 2-3 is what I expect).
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The one hour a week for 3 years was to illustrate the amount of practice Dan has had with just the driver, I had said 4500 buckets (at 80 balls a bucket) 5 times a week for 17 years to shoot in the 70's. Perhaps there are too many numbers in this thread. Also the amount spend on range balls doesn't actually have anything to do with what Dan or what anyone has paid. Someone gave their local driving range costs and I said that was a good way to illustrate how many balls Dan has actually hit and gave the amount that person would have to pay to hit the the number of balls that Dan has. (I also have a range membership so it cost me nothing, it's just an illustration)
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I understand your point but people have continued to say this sort of thing since the beginning, such as: "well he's only been at it 2 years, so that's pretty good for someone who has only been golfing 2 years" This whole thing was only supposed to last 6 years or so (originally) so at the end of this you could just as easily say, "well he's only been playing 6 years" It seems to me when people are trying to give Dan some slack they talk in general terms about how (well now 3100 hours) 2.5 years isn't that long but if you sit down and consider how much time that really is, it's a TON of practice! A lot of practice to me would be reserving an hour of practice after work Monday, Wednesday and Friday, all year (minus winter) and that would be only 96 hours of practice a year. It would take me 32 YEARS to catch Dan where he currently is.
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I think these are lousy excuses, Dan has been hitting the driver for almost a year now (~10 months) and the likely means he has already hit more balls with a driver than the majority of people reading this. (you guys do recall that he practices golf as a full time job right? ) Dan: "November 14 was good and ready for the driver, the final piece of our building equation." Say he's been at this ~28 months, hit 350,000 balls so ~12,000 balls a month, hit about 120,000 shots in the last 10 months. If he practices driver even 10% of the time that's 12000 shots with the driver. That's the equivalent of hitting a bucket every week all year long for 3 years with just your driver.
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I'm not sure what we are comparing him to, see the thing about this is that it is exactly what we expect if all of this practice is no longer helping him much. Those scores look identical to my company league scores with the exception of the typical winning score in the 30's. These are guys that don't practice at all AND Dan has hit 350,000 balls and practices golf as a full time job going into year 3 now! Also, when Dan started this thing there were like half a dozen other guys doing the same. My favorite was probably the My Green Jacket guy, his project ended with a good quote (Guy was shooting low 40's in no time (because that is exactly what happens to everyone that puts in any amount off effort) but then 2 years later... Still shoots in the low 40's on average, this seems to happen to just about everyone that really 'goes after it'. "But after 250 rounds? And weeks on the range, with topdrawer coaching? All that visualisation? Yes, I improved a lot. But then you meet some boytjie who never practises and slams it around to a score in the mid-70s once a week. That is called sporting ability. Talent. You need that stuff. And that’s where I really start to feel ill. Because if I had ability like that and worked as hard as I did, I’d be in plus figures by now." LovinitAll, do you think that Dan is on pace and about where he should be with the amount off effort and time that he has put in? If you quit your job and practiced nearly every day for years, would +9 and + 16 be acceptable to you? I also think that I was spot on with him playing to his hadicap, I believe Dan would have needed to shoot a 75 to shoot his handicap from the whites and a 77 from the tips. (I know you only shoot your handi 25% but just saying not even close here) I'm told the USGA will ban you from qualifying tournaments if you claim to have a 2-3 handicap and shoot > 10 strokes over the course rating, which Dan did both days. Perhaps as much as 19 strokes over on the second day if they were playing the whites. 19 strokes over the course rating is not acceptable for a golfer with a handicap of 5.9.
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Well the results of his first two day tournament are in: He was 25 shots over par over the course of 2 days with a +9, 81 the first day and a +16, 88 the second day. Not sure what tees they played from but: Whites 69.3/115 Blues 71.0/124
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*Lovinitall, while your posts have been very good in this thread I'm not sure you understand the point that I am making. btw, Dan: "Any time I am playing these rounds I will also determine beforehand if it’s an on-course practice round (important to have rounds where you drop multiple balls from different locations and to learn shots) or a scoring round." This happened four months after his handicap hadn't changed at all until the end where it went up .1 points. He referred to this time as a 'plan shift'. Here's what happened to his handicap following this: He is certainly picking and choosing prior (he says) to playing if he is going to play for real or handicap. Given the pressure on him to show continual improvement I worry how far he will take this culling the best scores. My guess is that at minimum he is playing for score until the round goes to crap and then he is 'playing for practice' think triple on the first hole... You responded to his ability to shoot near his handicap of 8.7 for the last couple of tournaments, he was able to do that. I think though as he finds ways to bring down his handicap, (like not recording scores when he is playing bad or doesn't feel like he will play well) that he won't be able to shoot near this new handicap. Most importantly though, I like Dan, I've read every single blog, watched every video, read every tweet, interview, article etc... I love the project! This doesn't mean though that I think he will be successful. I've argued with Dan from the beginning about how this would play out and so far I have been right on target. I think this is great info for people out there that think they are going to just start putting in tons of hours after work and get really good at golf. I'll forever be able to cite Dan and his project when these arguments come up. (which is why I really hope he keeps this legit) I'm not being critical of Dan, I'm being critical of this idea that practice will continually improve your performance as a golfer. My last prediction, is that Dan is going to start getting worse over the next couple of weeks/months. I expect him around a 7 soon.
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I grill Dan on this all the time, but he is picking and choosing now when he wants to play for handicap and when he wants to play for practice. (I don't like where that is going...) I don't believe he could sniff a 6 handicap in a tournament situation. Fortunately, we will get to see that here soon as he is playing a 36 hole event. (his tournament scores have him closer to a 12) But again, who cares... no comment on him hitting 350,000 balls and being wherever he is? What does it mean the someone could devote this much time, effort and money into golf and not be able to beat some of the guys in your foursome?
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That's another good way to illustrate the amount of effort Dan has put in to get to a 6 handicap. By his own estimate he has hit 346,560 balls so far in the project. That would be an astounding 47 THOUSAND DOLLARS worth of range balls at the price you gave. I wonder how many people would even bother practicing if they were told it took someone 47,000 dollars worth of range balls (and working with an instructor! ) to get themselves down to mid single digits. Seriously what are the implications here for golf instruction?! "First lesson, okay I'm going to have you hit this bucket and work on some things in your swing. If I can get you to come back 4500 times, or once a week for the next 86 years (or 5 times a week for 17 years!) you might be able to break 80 at the end"
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I was waiting to hear from Iacas on this, got to say though I'm really surprised by the optimism in your post. You think Dan will get to a +1-+2, does that mean you think that a 6 handicap is 1/3 of the way to +2? Or 3X the skill of a 6 handicap is a +2? I would have guessed it was something more like 3X(skill of scratch) as a + 1.5 . (and if Dan had gotten to scratch in 3000 hours I would have also projected something around a +1.5 ) Anyway, I've said for a while now that Dan would be about a 6 around 3000 hours (As much as a year, year and a half back), BUT I also said he wouldn't see a 4 handi until 5000 hours but then will spend the remainder of the project around a 2 handicap. I think everyone underestimates how much time he has already spent on this. 3000 hours is a CRAZY amount of golf! (think hitting 200 balls every single day for 8+ years) It will quickly become "I know how to do it but it's just not happening"
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So I was watching golf the other day and they mentioned that John Daley was finally able to break the 300 yard average driving mark back in 2000 for the first time. Now there are about 20 professional golfers that currently do. Have people always claimed to hit the ball 300 pretty routinely, did this happen even before the arguably longest golfer in the PGA started doing it? Do the people that say that routinely hit it 300+ yards also think that they are doing something now that nobody was able to do before the year 2000?
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^ Yep had a quad and a couple triples. It looked like a really short course overall (270 yard par 4?) Maybe ~6000 yards? It could have been worse though, I think he probably enjoyed the extra attention as it is just as much about the publicity as it is the golf. He needs to think though that he was beat by a bunch of people that have not invested nearly as much time as he has into golf.
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Dan Plan mile stone, he is starting year three now! Last 5 scores, 82, 91, 85, 90, 91...
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After struggling for many weeks in every way imaginable everything seemed to just click recently. I hit a lot of partial wedges early spring in my yard and I got really comfortable with the ball up in my stance, a fuller slow back swing and swinging flatter and keeping my head behind the ball. It's always hard to describe how a swing feels but the best I can is I went from trying to work down the target line to feeling like I was trying to slide the club horizontally under the ball (like you would with a 60 degree wedge that you are trying to hit soft) (I know you aren't supposed to try to get 'under' the ball but that's the feel) I've also got hell bent on keeping my head behind the ball although I've always felt like there was no way from me to hit 'down' on the ball unless my head was in front of the ball. Knowing that my intuition was wrong I just played through how strange it felt and found that I really started to get the club bottoming out in front of the ball without to much conscious effort. Soooo, after hitting the ball like crap I thought to myself to just keep the ball up in my stance and hit everything like I"m hitting a wedge and BAM! :P I feel like I'm striping everything with a long, high push draw and it's awfully consistent (for now :) I'm still having issues with a follow through I'm happy with, I don't understand how that 'smooth club working left and up follow through' works. I also have some issue keeping my spine angle and will occasionally pull back just enough to toe shots. Any helpful criticism is appreciated, thanks!
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Someone mentioned snake oil in one of the 'Patrick' threads, that's exactly how this reads. You have someone who has had success with chants, a spoon full of motor oil and leeches and you have a bunch of MD's telling him he's crazy. Patrick has a 'holistic' approach that doesn't require all these unnecessary details and facts. He's not even all that concerned with what the 'facts' are. To be fair though Patrick if you can't answer the question: "Why does someone that pull slices the ball need to do to turn their ball flight into a push draw?", how helpful can you really be? It's cool though, I like reading these threads. It reminds me of college (you think you are good at things until you get to college) Patrick thought he had a good understanding of the golf swing until he came 'to the internet'. The "I have no real idea what I'm talking about" is starting to catch up to him and it's interesting to watch how he comes to grips with that. So far it's been a lot of all this science pisses me off and is unnecessary, He's also tried to level the playing field by dismissing all factual information related to the golf swing as too technical. I'm not sure where he'll go next but I'll keep tuning in. :)
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Yep, that's the first thing I posted. I'm not sure that's quite as concrete as everything else but yea.
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Wait.... what? Have you read the whole thread? This was posted first on another site: (3/29 8:52 PM) Hey guys, I am a new member of this forum and thought I'd let you know I signed up. My name is Webb Simpson, I am currently a member of the PGA Tour. I have a great wife and a beautiful child. I have joined Operation Sports because gaming a always been a hobby of mine. I've played NCAA football fro the Bill Walsh days and got stuck to it since I was a young child. I was born in Raliegh, NC, attended Wake Forest University, but currently live in Charlotte, NC. I have jut gotten into the Tiger Woods series the past couple of years and find it to be quite fun. (The only problem is that I'm not in the game lol). So this thread is open for nay dissuasion regarding golf, Tiger Woods 12-13, or whatever you want to ask me. I am always open to discussions with my fans. Thanks God Bless Then, from the same guy who was later banned from that website: Hey guys, how are ya? I'm new here, just signed up last night. I currently an a Wide Receiver at the University of North Carolina (#86, sophomore, from Sanford, NC).(But I am a gamer at heart) We can't wait to get the season started with the new coach Larry Fedora. Even with the postseason 1 year ban, we are gonna work our butts off to put UNC in the national spotlight. The team greatly appreciates all the fan support through the good times and bad. Any of ya'll are welcomes to reply and talk about UNC football, football in general, or anything you like. God Bless Following getting banned on that site ^ , this guy shows up on this website with: (March 31'st) Hey guys, I just signed up the other night and have enjoyed the site thus far. My name is Webb Simpson, I'm a player on the Tour with a wife and beautiful child. I was born in Raleigh, NC, played golf at Wake Forest, and currently live in Charlotte, NC. I found this site through a friend of mine and decided to take a look. I assume you all are golf fans and enjoy the game. Just wanted to get off on the right foot on the forum by making this thread. You can reply asking questions about golf, life on the Tour, or anything you please. So cheers to future good readings on the SandTrap and to good golf rounds ahead. Thanks God Bless (he says that someone else posted those other posts before his but his is real) It's clearly the same guy. I can't believe after all of that you say you think this is genuine. *mind blown* He says the ones in bold are from an imposter and aren't him and it's coincidence maybe that he happened to word his post nearly exactly the same as the first post.