malincanada

D'oh! I focused on the 'ball in play' part and completely missed the 'or' meaning that part (ii) doesn't care whether there's a ball in play or not. Definitely agree that clause (ii) is more than sufficient and definitely agree with you iacas that I would ensure the club was removed before the second drop. In fact, if I was already near him, having helped search for the ball, I hope I'd be quick enough to say "Let me just move that club for you" before the first drop! :)

Someone on my club's Facebook page just asked: "If you measure two club lengths from an unplayable lie, and leave the club on the ground, and the ball touches it when it's dropped, is that a penalty" I pointed him towards Rule 20-2a which clearly specifies that the ball must be re-dropped, but what I didn't find anywhere in the rule or the decisions was an explicit rule about the following scenario: I declare an unplayable lie and mark out two club lengths which gets me back to cut grass, but only just a couple of feet outside the deep rough I was in. I 'accidentally' leave the club lying along the edge of the rough. Now, if I drop it and it lands and stays put, all is fine, but if it happens to bounce in the direction of the rough it will probably hit the club and I get to re-drop. After Rule 20-2a there is a parenthesized sentence saying: "(Taking action to influence position or movement of ball - see Rule 1-2)" but with no further clarification as to when that would apply and Rule 1-2 specifically applies to a 'Ball in Play' which the ball isn't yet because it hasn't been correctly dropped. Is there a decision that I am missing here or is this a bit of a gap? I'm certainly not saying that the person using the club as a 'block' to the rough should escape penalty, I'm just struggling to justify the penalty based on the Rules/Decisions that I'm reading.

I'm starting to think that you 'poll' wasn't a genuine attempt to gain everybody's view on the one specific question that you asked. It's almost as though you were waiting for someone to reply 'YES' so that you could gleefully jump on them with all your additional 'reasoning'! Tsk tsk. So in answer to your NEW questions... 1. No. You didn't do anything illegal. I actually don't think any of the penalties listed in the rules of golf relate to legality. If you see someone shooting a FC (or opponent. This applies to match play as well) you should probably call 911, not the organising committee. 2. No. Losing a golf ball is not cheating. What you do after you have lost it might be. 3. No. It's not an advantage to lose a golf ball. Depending on what you do next, you might gain an unfair advantage over everyone else who has also lost a ball in the setting sun under the ten tonnes of leaves that your superintendent daily piles up on each fairway. I don't understand your next questions as they almost look like statements of your own opinion that have no basis in fact. 'You are essentially given a penalty for a poor shot'. I'm fairly sure the Rules of Golf couldn't care less about how 'pure' or otherwise you strike your shot. If they did then as well as fore caddies and RFID chips we would all now have to shell out for 'Pur-o-Meters' TM that give a reading for each shot. Based on that reading you could then assess the correct penalty to the shot in question.

For a lost ball, the similarity in every case is that the ball that you hit is now lost.

Sorry. I missed the part when the ball was in the bunker. But I still think that the rule applies regardless of whether your bunker shot is shanked 50yds right or hit pure. If you can't find it, there is a penalty. The penalty is for losing the ball.

Losing the ball. I thought that was in the title of the thread.

I'm not sure if your 'poll' was meant as a joke but I will answer: YES. I do think that the rule was meant to apply to both of the shots that you describe.

I clearly need more work to do as I've actually sat and read through this whole thread! I also now need plugs after having pulled out a substantial amount of hair! Anyway, I am amazed at the one glaring omission from this thread: At every point a provisional ball has been mentioned it has been assumed that the provisional tee-shot will be perfect and in the middle of the fairway (and not under any of the leaves that have afflicted the first one!) Surely some of you here have experienced the joy of hitting your regular 50yd slice into the thick stuff on the right, declaring a provisional and re-teeing, aiming thirty yards left to account for the slice, and sending a magnificent pull hook into the crap on the left!!

The one thing that I would add to this thread is the fact that you should always try and be aware of all the options available to you in any given situation. For example, Seve fans will remember that quite often when his ball was near a tree trunk, he was very good at spotting rabbit scrapes from which he might get free relief!! I'm not trying to condone bending or stretching rules - 'equity' is a very important aspect of the rules - but I think it's important to note that having knowledge of the rules is not only about applying the correct penalties to yourself, but is also about making sure you avail yourself of the best option for yourself in each situation.

Not to mention that coming up with scenarios where people could twist a rule is the best way of finding out if there are any gaps in the rules that should be addressed. It certainly helps to have an overarching rule that gives committees power to deal with 'serious breaches' on a case-by-case basis, but it never hurts to try and legislate for these gaps as well. Rules are always in an evolutionary state. There will never be a 'finished' version of the rules.

I consider myself lucky that I started being a regular on a golf course at the age of five and had my father and numerous peers of his to teach me exactly what was and wasn't expected of me on the golf course. Some people weren't as lucky and simply don't know these things and the only way they are going to find out is by being helped by others. I understand, however, how difficult it might be to provide this 'help' to a grown man rather than a five year old! The one thing I think should be easier to deal with is the shaving. If you don't already, then make a real effort to keep track of every shot he hits and from where. When he says 'Five!' as you're walking off the green it can be tricky if all you can say is, "Oh, I thought you had seven". However, if you can say "Oh, I thought you hit your tee shot in the rough on the right, two back on to the fairway, three to the semi-rough at the back of the green, chipped on for four about 20ft below the hole, putted about six feet past and then left the one back about six inches short and tapped in, so I make it a seven", there's very little he can come back with. Once you've recited every shot he's played on several holes he should get the idea that he either needs to stop lying or that he should pay a bit more attention!

For sure, but this was a definite marking it on the green situation. Like I say, I'm sure it was just an issue of how the green was cut making it look like a fringe on TV. There was a second line just outside the ball as well which I'm sure was the actual fringe.

I also had some confusion over the green/fringe during the Masters. I can't remember who/where/when, but I saw a player marking his ball and I thought, "Hang on, he's not on the green!" I pretty much instantly dismissed it as I was sure no top pro would make that mistake and figured it must just be some issue with how the green was cut. Funny that when you noticed something similar it was reversed and that the ball appeared on the green but was off.

This should be: "The question would then be would touching that mark on the ground constitute 'pointing out a line for putting'."

To be fair turtleback didn't say anything about 'placing' a mark. I took him to mean that if there was, for example, a spike mark or a discoloured spot on the surface behind the ball that matched up with the line you wanted to take then that could be used to point out the line of the putt. The question would then be are you allowed to touch that mark on the ground as a way of 'pointing out a line for putting'. My contention is that 'pointing out a line for putting' and 'aligning' are subtly different. It's a strangely worded rule and my frustration with it has been compounded by this page: http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-08/#d8-2b-1 At the bottom it says "Other Decisions related to Rule 8-2b : See "Indicating Line for Putting" and "Line of Putt" in the Index." but I can't for the life of me find the Index on the website. Am I being very dumb? Or is it referring just to the Index of the printed material and they've copied it verbatim to the website but not included an Index?!