Avid Golfer

Grndslmhttr3's tip about checking your shoulder alignment at setup is a good one. Your upper body alignment dictates the direction your body and club will swing back. If your upper body is aligned left making your swing start back outside the ball to target line you'll also be extremely likely to swing through from the same direction (coming down from the right of the ball to target line, and swinging to the left going through). I'd recommend strengthening your target side grip (left hand for right handed golfers) to increase your amount of deloft at impact. Bobby Jones credited his strong left hand grip at setup with causing his hands to be ahead of the ball at impact, and said that Harry Vardon's weak left hand grip made Vardon arrive at impact with the hands even at impact. Lessons will only benefit you if you find a quality instructor that is able to communicate in a way you understand, and with information that makes sense. The instructor you described above does not sound like a good instructor to me. Getting behind the ball has little to no relevance to swing path at impact.

A new Swing Check article has been added featuring Xavier Augustyniak (known here on the forum as the Rambler ). http://thesandtrap.com/extras/swing_...swing_analysis

Here is a quick analysis comparing you to another Englishman Nick Faldo. Starting off your address angles look a little weak. In particular your hips look to be set low and underneath you. Your shaft angle has the club pointing high up into your stomach. In comparison Faldo has his hips held high and pushed back, and the club shaft pointing at his belt. Getting your posture improved at setup will allow you to make better movement during the swing where you will be more balance and have less deviation from swing to swing. Getting the shaft to form a right angle with your spine will help the club start back along the original shaft angle plane instead of swinging under it. As you reach hip high back you still have ok body angles, but by the time you reach the top of the swing you've drastically altered your posture. An easy way to think of body rotation is that it is moving level around your tilted spine. Look at how Faldo's core and chest have rotated level around the tilt he established at address. As you start down your arms rise and fail away from the body. As Faldo starts down his arms drop behind him as his back stays rotated away from the target. This allows Faldo to approach from a shallow angle where the club approaches from inside the ball to target line and the right wrist is able to maintain its hinge. We see before impact that as a result of the club swinging out and away from the body that the clubhead is to the right of the ball which means you'll have to yank your arms, body, and club to the left to hit the ball. Common shot results of that motion tend to be shanks, pulls, and slices.

I prefer a constant ball position (like Hogan and Nicklaus), but I base it off my upper body (like Greg Norman and Nick Faldo) since stance width can create a optical illusion. I prefer to have the ball positioned in line with my front ear and shirt logo for irons and fairway woods, but for a driver (with the ball tee'd up high) I make the exception of playing it in line with my front shoulder. You'll find the same positioning employee'd by the tour pros when you examine pictures of them at address . I would term the swing method I use to work on my swing as fitting the Modern/Leverage school of thought. My standard ball flight is straight, but I can draw, fade, hook, and slice when I desire (to cut the corner on a dog leg, or get my approach shot to hit into a slope with a desired amount of release in mind). My current index is a +0.4, but I'm trending back up to a 0.7 (likely a result of playing less often).

To update people who haven't looked at the home page in awhile there are a few new Swing Check articles up. Troy Worden's Swing Check Eric Hanf's Swing Check If you're interested in having a free swing analysis done send your swings, and a little information about your game (as listed on the requirements page ) to tom[at]thesandtrap.com

Your problem may be more tied to spin rate and angle attack then to launch angle directly. In general the desired launch conditions are a high launch angle combined with a low spin rate. If spin is causing the high ball flight then modifications to setup and swing that produce a shallower angle of approach should help. If your backspin rate is not too high then you may find that changes that promote the club swinging through level at impact may help. If your hitting with too much of an upward blow and setup with 60% of your weight on your back leg, and your spine tilted significantly away from the target then you may benefit from setting up with 50-50 weight distribution and less spine tilt away from the target. If your blow is too decending then the 60% weight on the back foot and spine tilted away from the target may help you level out for impact.

Shoulder alignment is more important then feet and hip alignment since the shoulders will set the path that the arms will move on. Correcting shoulder alignment may correct path. The ball may still curve away to the right (due to grip or arm rotational motion), but it will be more likely to start on line after correcting alignment (and/or path). What do you mean by you attempted to attempted to keep rigid? You shouldn't need to keep anything stiff in order to make a sound swing.

The direction your ball starts is related to the direction the clubhead is swing through impact. Since your ball is starting its flight out to the right that is the direction the clubhead is moving as it goes through impact. I agree that alignment could be related to the problem (dictating the direction of the swing), but I disagree with the grip conclusion. Mellojoe says they are going straight right, even with his 5 wood, if his swing path was toward the target, but the grip was leaving the clubface open then the ball would tend to slice. Offset does not have any significant effect on the position of the clubface at impact. Getting the club stuck (where the body blocks the path of the arms may result in the arms swings out away from the body) is a plausable cause of a block swing path.

Do you know for sure that your takeaway is different with your irons vs. your woods (have you seen them both on video), or do you think or feel you are making a different takeaway with each? Most people's swings are extremely similar between the irons and woods (unless they are setting up drastically different, and/or purposely making extreme movements with deliberate intent).

Did the fitter tell you he was a scratch golfer, or have you actually played with the person and seen him shoot scores of a scratch golfer? The reason I ask is I've never heard a scratch golfer (or anyone remotely close to scratch) associate hand action with heel hits (the notion is ludicrous IMO). If you're hitting shots toward the heel of the club I would suspect that your balance and/or posture are at fault. If your posture changes and your weight moves toward your toes, and the ball, then the heel of the club will arrive closer to the ball then it otherwise would have been.

Your setup has a big influence on how well you are able to swing on a sound plane. If you look at pro golfers you'll see that most tend to have their back (spine) and the club shaft forming a right angle at address, and the edge of the shoulders stacked over the knee caps and the balls of the feet. If your setup has those same characteristics then you'll have a good chance of swinging on a good plane, but if your posture and/or balance are off you'll have physics and biomechanics working against you. Pro setup example:

My opinion is that it is best to keep the setup as simple and consistent as possible from one shot to the next. The pros tend to keep the ball consistently in line with the left ear regardless of what club they are hitting( excluding the driver - see image below). By changing the ball position balance, posture, swing plane, angle of attack, spin rate, and clubface angle are all altered leading to more variables that are going to make a repeating swing and contact much more difficult. Some parts of the setup can be flexible to change and still result in good contact (alignment and grip being two), while others (like balance and posture) aren't as easy to change and still achieve solid and consistent contact. That is why for most pros you find that the edge of their shoulder, knees, and balls of the feet line up (again regardless of club -see image below). Standing father away from the ball (getting the upper body tilted too much toward the ball) makes it much more difficult to maintain balance and posture, and get back down to a solid impact position. If you have good setup fundamentals, and you don't have faulty motions (straightening back leg, over rotating hips, arms seperating and moving independantly) then you shouldn't have to worry about swing plane. (A good setup, stable lower body, and a coordinated arm/body motion will be the big determining factors of swing plane). Immelman iron setup: Els, Goosen, Garcia, and Immelman driver setup: Els, Elkington, Norman, and Price irons setup:

I've had my swing analized by the Nick Faldo Golf Institute also (a year or two ago in California), and I think it can be time well spent. If you get a good (and knowlegable) instructor it can help, but like with all golf instruction if you get a less skilled instructor (or one with weaker communication skills) it may be counter productive (if you believe what the instructor tells you). Anyone interested in having videos of their swings examined can always send it in to the SandTrap Swing Check for analysis and request a favorite pro (or pros) to have it compared to for free. Like you, montru, there are things I don't agree with that she says, and things that she fails to notice (or mention). I've made screen captures of your video and drawn a couple lines from things I see. (see the pictures in the spoiler tags below). I agree with her that your ball position is too far back, and the shaft angle at address (face on view) is leaning too much toward the target. One thing I think she failed to notice in that top frame is the position of your hips and legs. Your hips and legs look to be set away from the target (to the left from the camera view). If you look at Faldo in comparison you see his right knee bumped inside his right hip, and his left knee is stacked more on top of his left foot (instead of inside it). The position you're in can lead to excessive lower body movement on the backswing, but Faldo's is set to provide stability and resistance. Nick Faldo (from the down the line view) stands closer to the ball and sticks his butt out more at address. You stand father away from the ball with more forward tilt (toward the ball) of the upper body. (See the seperation between the red balls of feet/knee cap line and the edge of your shoulder?) That also encourages excessive lower body movement. As you swing back your back leg straightens and your hips turn excessively. That is why your club swings deep behind you as opposed to more in front of the chest like we see with Faldo (who has more contained hip rotation). The more stable lower body will lead to an a more Faldo like half way back position (what she is trying to get you to do sounds like it would be a compensation move, and not correct the cause). The bottom left comparison she made is pointless in my view since you are in to very different parts of the swing. (Your at the top of your swing in the left shirt image, and only half way back in the blue shirt image). As far as the downswing I suspect the reason why you loose your wrist hinge is because you have lost your posture (and spine angle). Faldo has done a good job of maintaining his angles (look at top middle image and bottom right image), and that is one of the reasons he is able to get to hip high on the downswing with his right wrist still hinged back, and approach from a shallow angle.

I recommend checking your grip and alingment before changing anything else. If your grip has become too strong (left hand too much on top of the grip, and right hand too much underneath) that may be resulting in the your clubface aiming left at impact with hooks being the result. If you're aligning your body too far to the right at setup that could be adding addition sidespin and/or blocking your arms on the downswing (which can cause them to rotate over). Finally if your body is out racing your arms on the downswing that could also lead to a block and flip action. Start with the setup and check your basics before you move on to trying to alter the way you swing. If your setup is faulty and you add bandaids in the form of altering your swing you'll be adding compensations that make things more complicated (and require more effort) in the long run.

In what way are you bending your wrist? Are you bending it like you would when you hammer a nail (cocking), or are you hinging it backward toward your arm like a door swinging open or closed (hinging). If you're cocking the wrists that may be promoting a more steep decent to impact, and be creating (or adding to) your pain. Many years ago I was playing after a frost delay (on a up slope with frozen ground) I hit down too steeply, and that stayed with me for months afterward. Like others have advised it might be a good idea to consult a doctor, and to take a break from golf for a short time (a full week might be a good idea).