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18 if you wish.....pretty significant for something almost taken for granted by most HC.

We disagree.

Good day Phil...good to hear from you...probably but doesn't really help the high HC advance his game. C'mon Saevel25....read my posts re BH and big name players.

My comment about Hogan's book and big name players is accurate.

Boogie....Hogan's book devotes 19 pages of the most detailed work on the grip.The grip is the most important thing,every big name player says so.

GolfLug....glad to see things have worked out for you.But in a post elsewhere I equated door hinges and the screws to the wrists and fingers,set them correctly and the door swings properly.

You refuse the look at the originally posted photo,one which is commonly acknowledged as being the natural arm hang .

Q-"What are these natural tendencies?" A-the natural angle of the lead arm/hand as mentioned. Q-How are golfers "fighting" against them? A-Unfortunately through a poorly, albeit difficult to explain gripping process Q-What is the definition in this instance of "manipulation"? A-Focusing on swing form as an answer to ball striking.

ok...maybe an "Are all 20 HC equal" thread is needed.

" In one sentence, what does this topic tell golfers to do? What is the idea, or thought, or whatever?" It tells them they are fighting with the arms and hands natural tendencies by using manipulation to try and produce a solid golf strike.

You seem , going by your swing and scores ,past the big move stage.An interesting observation with most of the new "my swing" pages is the ability to maintain a truly straight stiff lead arm on the takeaway.This sets up the other big joint,the wrist, to perform properly but can't provide the grip with the essentials.Your pro was probably right in discussing the grip,but weak vs strong is not specific enough.

I really don't care if anyone acknowledges what I am attempting to point out through these various online sources.Asking if I am mythbuster is a disingenuous question.

We disagree,the lead hand of JR does match the free natural hand seen in the opening photo.The right hand has not been discussed yet.But essentially it will adapt in a "yin yang" manner,to use that metaphor,if done correctly.

The position is defined.The photo shows the natural hang of the hands,(specifically the lead to be noted).This Justin Rose photo then shows it when the club adapts to it.The open face at address according to the JN quote further confirms this concept.

I am not The confusion lies in the fact that I am talking the ignored subtlties of golf.The 5sk good & bad swing article shows that something other than the big and obvious motions must be in play.

Ok Dave325....but how often do you see a pro grip the club in the lower hand first and then adjust the lead hand....note grip,not hold,grip. ....I would suggest never....this represents the common denominator that is little understood

No it's this..Making the natural fit the unnatural is the question

Then explain the 5sk good and bad swing article.Why the same apparent swing produces both a good and bad shot.

"I've never seen a really good player set it square or closed at address," he said. Dave325,...my perspective on what makes the swing work is based on small subtle things,like Jack's open face opinion.The 5sk article on good and bad swings looking the same supports this idea as well.

Isn't that Jordan Spieth?? He is known for a slightly bowed wrist.

As I mentioned in a previous post above,the lead hand grip needs to comply with the natural hang of that hand...my little experiment suggests ,IMO, that the hand at the top of the swing, having no weight on it, has the same plane angle when closed as when naturally placed at one's side,open or closed. If my comments are seen as being OT.I have no doubt they will be deleted and calm will be restored.

This is known as an experiment which should involve more than one opinion.You see nothing in it-fine.

Bruce Lietzke played a big fade which Johnny Miller disparagingly called a slice.

If you place your open lead hand alone over your opposite shoulder as would occur in a swing,then close it into a fist bringing it back down to your lead side,what is the angle of the knuckle line?

Basically you need a lead hand grip that complies with the natural hang of that hand which is then not messed up by an incorrect lower hand grip.If this is done,then grip pressure can be anything that isn't extreme.