darthfader

LOL. I used to think the same thing!!! You're on the right track! Review the attached image. I'll refer to this image by "columns" and "rows". Column 1 is you, Column 2 is me, Column 3 is Mr. PGA Tour Guy ("PTG") teeing off on #7 at Augusta. Row 1 is setup, Row 2 is the top of the backswing, Row 3 is hands at waist-high coming down, Row 4 is impact. I've drawn four lines for each of us: a couple to show the head position, one to show the posture (down the rear), and another to show the flex in the right leg. 1. Row 1 - you and PTG look fine. I'm a little "squatty". I've been fighting that for years... 2. Row 2 - your right leg is collapsing a bit, I'm doing a little better, and PTG is pretty solid. I've lost a bit of posture, and I'm WAY across the line at the top (has gotten better recently). You and PTG are looking on-plane. 3. Row 3 - PTG is really staying behind the ball and uncoiling fast, hence the huge lag. Also notice that his head has dipped noticeably since address. From what I've heard, PTG has a tendency to hang back TOO much on the right side and get too far "underneath". Still a good example for us though. Me... I've started sliding, as you can see by my hips (not rotating), and my right heel WAY off the ground. Now I'll need to flip with the hands since the body isn't rotating fast enough. You, well... lower body is in pretty good shape, posture is pretty good, but you've casted the club into this position, so your upper body needs to lift up to make some room for impact. Your right heel also tells me that you are probably "pushing off" a little with the right side, instead of letting the hips just unwind. 4. Row 4 - Your impact position is quite a bit better than mine, but you lost a lot of power due to the casting. That equates to your swing/ball speeds being roughly 106/155, and mine (when this video was taken) is roughly 109/160. Not a huge difference, but you can see what the casting costs you. PTG is solid (hitting a fade), probably around 114/168. Keep the legs quiet, rotate the arms/torso with your weight a little farther right than feels comfortable, relax the hands. Take it slow, let it happen.

First of all thumper, the swing looks great!! I'm sure there were countless hours involved over the winter trying to change things, break bad habits, etc.. It's hard to find a lot of faults here. You mentioned something about maintaining lag, so I figured you might get something out of this: (see attached) Top two photos are you, as the hands are dropping to waist level. (I drew yellow lines to represent the shaft angle.) The bottom left photo is me (hard to criticize you if I don't allow myself to be judged). Bottom right photo is a successful PGA Tour player (multiple winner), name is unimportant. Point is, something is preventing you from retaining your angle. Golfers who slide tend to also flip/cast the club, and it appears you've got a bit of that going on. Other things worth mentioning: Ball position with the driver looks good, but not so much with your short iron. I drew the red line so you could see how far ahead of the ball your body is getting. So now you're saying, "Thanks for nothing Darth! I thought I was making good progress?!?! Now you're just nitpicking at my swing!" Sorry if it sounds like that. Honestly, you're swing is getting better and getting better QUICKLY. You should be proud. You're probably hitting the ball better, straighter, farther..... and the ball doesn't lie. So I'll give some advice, based on my experience. Take it or leave it. Keep in mind, I've fought many of these same battles. 1. Ball position, ball position, ball position. You've got a repeating swing, but the ball position looks too far back with your short iron. Don't get into that bad habit. Too far back, and you'll start compensating by releasing early. 2. You swing really hard with that iron. Practice slowing things down to 50% speed. Your body needs time to adjust to a new impact position. Try punching a low 9-iron 100 yds. It requires soft hands and an easy tempo. 3. The pros maintain lag because their hands are relatively soft (light grip pressure), but their ARMS/SHOULDERS rotate at a constant speed. The weight of the clubhead simply causes the "lag". Keep that in mind. 4. Take a few swings where you feel as if your weight stays on your right leg longer, almost like you are trying to swing "off the back foot." I'm pretty sure that if you can keep yourself "behind the ball" better, maybe relax the grip a little, the lag will happen. I know it did for me. Good stuff! What is your clubhead/ball speed with the driver? Looks like you're hitting them out of the county! :)

4 birdies in a row, shot 32 going out once (TPC Piper Glen). Nice greens that day. 2 eagles in a row at Tot Hill Farm (weird, short par 5s)

Couldn't agree more. His swing has an enormous amount of potential, especially with how well he releases the club. Jay-Bird, when the ground thaws and you can hit some shots, try opening your stance (lay a club down to confirm) and weakening your grip a bit, and TRY to hit a bunch of LOW PULL-FADES. LOW = you're still trapping the ball, PULL = maybe try feeling like your hands are higher at the top, and maybe a hint of that "over-the-top" feeling to keep the club from getting too far inside, and FADE = hopefully a slightly weaker grip will keep the ball from moving left. It should feel like you are releasing the club a little LEFT of target. Keeping the right leg stable (as RC mentions above) is a huge key to consistency, IMO. The fewer moving parts, the better. But keeping the right leg flexed and braced is something that requires strength and flexibility which (in my experience) most golfers don't possess. Takes time and practice.

OK, so I sliced up your YouTube video into a dozen or so frames, so you can see the positions. Sorry if it looks a little blurry, I did my best. First, the good stuff: 1. Great extension right after impact. 2. Good job of keeping the feet quiet. 3. Nice flex in the right knee during most of the swing. 4. Are you Stack and Tilt? Now, I'll be picky: 1. Look at your address position. Your feet are setting up to the right, but I can't see your left leg or your left arm. It appears that the feet are aimed right, while the hips and shoulders are already open. Also, it looks like you might be squatting a bit, and maybe back on your heels. 2. At 0:08, it seems like the club starts getting a bit too much inside. The farther inside it gets, the easier it will be to approach from the inside. Approach too far from the inside = hooks or blocks, depending on your timing. 3. At 0:14, you're at the top. Your right leg has actually shifted away from the ball several inches since address. This tells me that instead of coiling into the right leg and loading the upper body towards the right leg, your hips are just rotating back and forth, pulling the legs along. Problem is, tilting the upper body a bit away from the target works to "trap" the arms, which would help prevent your overswing at the top. 4. The positions at 0:20 and 0:22 are fantastic. The big issue I see is how you arrived there from the previous position. Your upper body needed to lift a few inches to make room, which causes some inconsistency. The more you "stand up" near impact, the more flat the plane becomes, and hooks/blocks become more likely. Really, at full-speed, the swing looks good. If you want to hit more fades, work on your address position, and try to get the hands a little higher at the top, with the grip a little weaker. Just small little things. Also, try sticking a club (or something) against your right knee, to feel it staying in place during the backswing. I bet it feels strange. ;) As always, these are just my opinions. I look at my swing a lot, it was nice looking at someone else's for a while. :) Hope I didn't offend. Fairways and greens, Darth

Jay-Bird, Looks good. You posted this swing here for a reason, so I've got my microscope out, looking for things to criticize! :) With a swing like this, it isn't easy. Before I say anything... where do you usually miss on the clubface? Also, what shape do you prefer? Draw... maybe a little cut? Where do your misses go? Way left... way right? How do your divots look? (probably pretty shallow on the frozen tundra... lol) I see a few things you could tweak, but if you tell me you are playing back at 7000 yards and hitting 12 fairways and 15 greens (or similar), and you just lose 5 shots with the putter every round... well... my advice goes out the window. Darth

I'm in total agreement here. In fact, when my slide started going away (mainly due to stronger legs, better posture, more flexibility), I started hitting lots of shanks and ENORMOUS hooks. As in, almost "trick-shot" hooks. I could hook a ball 50 yards with a 7-iron. It was awful. Not to mention the shanks. [sigh] In order to hit a big hook, the club MUST approach the ball WAY from the inside. When I say "hook", I mean a ball that starts WAY far right, and curves back to the target line. A pull-hook is similar, except that at impact the face is also slightly shut. As RC stated, it is hard to describe these ideas in text. So I try to be careful giving advice that could be destructive. I'm not a teaching pro. The only thing I can do well is describe my experience as a "slider". Hopefully some of it pertains to you, and it puts you on the right path. :) That being said..... Thumper.. looks great, man. You have so much speed its ridiculous. :) Mighty fine job on the fitness too... better golf is just one of the benefits to getting in better shape. I can't really see any slide from that down-the-line view, but it is clear that you are REALLY trying to keep the head still. Maybe TOO still. Take the club back a foot or so, then feel like you gradually ease more into that right leg. If your upper body feels like it tilts slightly away from the target at the top, even better. Gotta keep that right knee flexed. Also... your swing looks NIGHT AND DAY better than before. Setup looks good, plane looks better. I can see your left arm folding across your chest on the way down... you're probably already working on fixing that. :) Awesome job. Armonster, you're at the beginning of the road. First, the backswing will feel strange. Then your feet might feel like they are "gripping" the ground more, rather than pushing off of it. Sometimes you'll wonder, "Why is everything going left?", or "Why is everything thin?" Just try to do one thing at a time. 1. It has taken me about 18 months, and I'm still not coiling into my right leg 100% of the time. Hopefully you will conquer this move much sooner. 2. Resist the tendency to do anything with the hands except A) holding onto the club and B) rotating the right forearm over left one (during the release) 3. Us sliders tend to get "stuck" almost all the time. What I mean is, we release the club early into a "crowded" position (arms close to the body), while we SLIDE towards the target, arriving at impact somehow. You may be taking the slide out of the equation, but you may have trained your arms to repeat this "stuck" or "crowded" position anyway. Hence the previous advice about getting the club "unstuck" (out in front of you). However, I quoted RC above regarding the grip, and you should also be wary. In my case, my years of sliding had taught me that I needed a VERY strong grip, or else my ball would go dead right. When I started unraveling my swing many moons ago, the grip was one of the things that was hardest to change. If you really are able to get the club more "in front" of you, AND you haven't compensated by weakening the grip sufficiently, the ball WILL go dead left. 4. Also something worth mentioning... I work on getting my arms away from my body A LOT. But I also know (from video), that my elbows got much too far apart during the downswing. Now I try to manage this by visualizing my elbows very close during the downswing/release. If you're really trying to maintain that address "triangle" and keep your arms in front... pay attention to the elbows. Summary: Grip: maybe too strong? Elbows: too much space? Coil: right knee flexed, weight loaded up over right leg? Keep at it. Post some video if you ever get the chance.

Aldila NV Protopype. Low launch, low spin.

Sure thing. Notice the position of your hands/arms at address. They're obviously directly in front of your chest! :) Now ask yourself, where are your hands/arms at the top of the backswing, in relation to your chest? In other words, how close is your left elbow to your chest? Have you maintained the "triangle" established by your chest and arms at address? Have you maintained the space between your elbows? As reference, take a look at these images of Tiger: http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/Ti...swingShift.jpg Notice how his left arm isn't folded weakly across the chest in the right picture. Delivering the club into the ball properly requires precise, coordinated movements. This is made far easier if you are able to establish a good address position, and then somehow reproduce this address position AT IMPACT, if only for a tiny fraction of a second. My point for anyone who "slides" on the downswing is that the slide tends to do a few things: 1. Prevents the body from rotating correctly 2. Prevents the body from reproducing the address position at impact 3. Gives the swing a lateral force (instead of a rotational force) that acts to trap the club behind you. You mentioned above that you tried the drill and occasionally hit a few big hooks. This should tell you that the club is approaching shallow and WAY inside the target line. My guess is: you've been a "slider" long enough that your hands/arms are trained to get very close to your body on the downswing. Now, doing this drill, you are adding more speed into the equation and the club gets off-plane (too inside, too shallow). My advice... keep doing the drill. Get comfortable with the idea of coiling into the right leg. By itself, the idea of coiling is difficult enough to require a WHILE to master. Later, if you want to advance this "coil" idea, you will need to train your body to un-coil while keeping the club on plane. This, I believe, is what causes your hooks and thin shots during the drill. Us sliders tend to be "pickers" of the ball, using our hands for power, and creating no leverage. (We also tend to approach from the inside during our early release, which leads to blocks right when we release a little late, and big hooks when we release a little early.) If this applies to you, you may eventually need to rework your downswing to get your hands more "above" the plane (which means they'll feel like they are farther away from your chest on the way down). Good luck. Keep doing the drill and using the tees. :)

You both make excellent points. You need to arrive at the top of the backswing with: 1. some flex in the right knee (requires right hip flexibility, right quad and adductor strength) 2. most weight loaded into right arch 3. hips resisting the coil of the upper body (lots of core strength/flexibility required here) 4. upper body NOT tilting towards the target (No reverse pivot) As far as the left heel goes, people who cannot keep the left heel down are people who haven't felt the need to develop the extra strength/flexibility in the LEFT hip that is required for that movement. Some people simply don't need it (Jack Nicklaus). Some people do (Tiger). To each their own. Seems to me that keeping the left heel down might help to prevent the hips from closing too much during the backswing, but keeping it down could also cause other issues. Hard to say.

RC's drill is very sound, and if you are doing it properly, you probably feel the club whipping through like it is supposed to. Unfortunately, this is a very strange feeling for many of us, especially those of us who have "flipped" the club through impact for years (or decades). For example, when I started trying to quiet my slide/sway, I suddenly realized that I could rotate my body much faster, and the club started moving much faster. When all the pieces are in place, the movement feels very simple and natural. BUT... I simply could not (and still can't) stop my right hand from flipping the club before impact. Bottom line is... if you're reading this thread, it probably means you know (or suspect) that you slide laterally towards the target during the downswing. Based on that assumption, one can assume that you have developed many different compensations over the years to allow you to strike the ball, even if that strike is poor. A slide usually indicates a bunch of problems.... poor hip rotation, shallow attack (maybe even shanks), etc. Getting rid of the slide won't instantly cure those problems. They'll each need some work too. In your case, I agree with RC. I'd bet the club is getting "behind" you on the way down, because your arms haven't adjusted to the feeling of supporting the new speed. For a habitual "slider", the idea of keeping the "arms in front of the chest" is a great one, but it needs to be accompanied by the hands/grip being very passive. Your ARMS need to stay out in front of your chest, and resist collapsing down across your chest. Your HANDS need to have a relaxed hold on the club, nothing more. Hard to accept for us "sliders", since we're used to everything being locked up at impact, and our slide has caused the club to shallow out to the point where we perform some body+hands ugliness to arrive at impact. As RC states... keep the club in front of you. And definitely hit off of a tee. Tee the ball up like a driver for a few balls. Once you start to maintain your posture better, you may start hitting balls high on the face. Time to lower the tee. Rinse and repeat. Good luck.

LOL... I know how you feel, I was the same way with the Deep Squat Test the first few weeks. I'd try it and fall over backwards. It was sad and funny all at the same time. ;) For me, I'd get to a certain "depth" in my squat, and it would feel like there was no more room for my hips to bend. Very frustrating, because I'm in pretty good shape. Well, when I had my TPI assessment (in Southern Pines), it was pretty obvious. My hips were nearly off-the-charts STIFF, in every way. Internal/external hip rotation was awful (and painful), hip flexors were super-tight. Not to mention all the weak core musculature, due to years of sitting at a desk. [sigh] Now, 5 months later, stretching at least once a day, the hips have loosened up, back feels better, posture is better, and golf swing is better. Not a coincidence. So you've got some knee issues.. any good TPI trainer should be able to point you in the right direction, without bothering the knees.

Dave.... got any video? I too, struggle to maintain my spine angle... and I constantly fight an ugly lateral shift towards the target. One thing I can mention for certain is... the guys over at TPI have detected a clear link between spine angle and core strength/flexibility. http://www.mytpi.com/mytpi05/swing/s...d=2&tab;=causes I should mention that I'm not a TPI instructor or anything, but I did have a TPI assessment last year, and it was very educational.

Not exactly sure what you mean, but I have a good idea. I remember the first few months of trying to swing with my feet together. At that point, I did not have sufficient flexibility in my hips/torso, so I was not able to "seperate" my hip turn from my shoulder turn. My right leg would straighten, the left leg would collapse, and my butt would sag towards the target. If you can imagine, from the face-on view, my body position at the top looked like a ">" (lower body angling right, upper body angling left). I assume this is what you meant by "swing your butt towards the target". Now, for the most part, I don't have that problem. My left knee still collapses a little bit, but I'm working hard on that. Being able to maintain the space between my knees is difficult, but very key for me to keep my sliding in check. As an example, look at the Anthony Kim sequence in the December Golf Digest. Note the space between the knees at address. Note the space between the knees at the top. Strength and flexibility, my friends. ;) Hope that helps.

RC, I couldn't agree more. The more things I fix in my swing, the more I realize how horribly wrong my approach was a few years ago. I don't think you could argue that striking a golf ball properly is "easy", but it seems a hundred times easier now that my plane is flatter, my hands are more passive, and I don't slide back and forth as much. I quoted your statement a couple times above, just to confirm a couple things I've noticed. First, on a scale of 1(loose) to 10(death grip), most mid-high handicap golfers seem to grip the club at about a 7. Mostly, it seems, because they feel like they will LOSE the club if they relax their grip. Sadly, they feel as if power comes from the hands and upper body, when the opposite is true. Power and consistency come from moving the hands, arms, and body as little as necessary to get the job done. But I understand how they feel, because I've been there. It is truly scary to go from a 7 grip-pressure to a 4. They wonder, "Where is this club going to end up?" All the more reason to take your advice and practice using a shorter swing. As far as flexibility goes... America is a nation of sitters. Sitting for long periods of time (car, office, home, etc) weakens and tightens a lot of the core areas that need to be strong and flexible for golf. I doubt that many of the tour players would try to sit on a couch all Saturday, then get up Sunday morning, no stretch, no warm-up, hit a couple of wedges on the range, then stripe one 320 yds down the middle off the first tee. And those guys are mostly in their late-20s to mid-30s!! Mr. Average 15 handicap guy, at 40+ yrs old... what chance does he really have to make the kind of dynamic hip turn you are describing? I say slim to none, unless he is unusually gifted, from a flexibility perspective. I have nothing against Mr. Average... I play with him quite often and I enjoy it. I just feel sorry for his lower back. I think that is the reason why handicaps haven't gone down in 20 years (I'm paraphrasing the statistics I've heard). The equipment may be better, but the average golfer is in worse shape. Just my two cents. But back to the thread.... Mr. Thumper keeps himself in good shape... he's got a chance!!