henniebogan1966

But in golf there are lots of ways to show gamesmanship without it being overtly rude or confrontational. For example, I'm a huge fan of Ben Hogan. But he was known for loving to use the words "You're still away" with his opponents. Subtle, yet kinda in your face without seeming to be rude. I mean if you're away you're away right? Is it wrong of him to say that? Whose to say? Yet it's one of those things that can get in your head if you let it. Or if an opponent hits a tee shot and says he missed that little, you happen to have looked to see what club he was hitting, you change clubs, and hit the wrong club resulting in a missed green or hitting into a hazard. Is it his fault for using that on you or your fault for not playing your own game? Matter of opinion as to which it is. I happen to believe you need to play your own game and laugh off the attempts of your opponent to get into your head. At the end of the day, we as individuals hit the shots for ourselves and not our opponents. I get what you're saying and in some ways I would agree. But I also understand and accept that it's an accepted part of the game.

This is the same discussion that takes place when we're talking about Pebble Beach #14 green. The argument being there is an entire quadrant that isn't "pinnable." Now in watching the last U.S. Open there last year, it is my belief that theory was proven wrong as I watched players not only hit the ball to the right quadrant (the one in question) but also watched balls hold that green, on Sunday, in that quadrant. So it was playable. Now pinnable might have been a different discussion, but if balls were holding then it was in fact pinnable. As to 13, the shot in question yesterdy did not reach the center of the green as the player contended. Instead it hit short left front of the green, where that false front is. As Paul Azinger eluded to this morning on the Pre-Game show on TGC, all the players know if you hit it there, it's going in the water. Today, that same player made birdie on 13. What a difference a day can make huh?

I for one can appreciate your reasoning on this issue. There are times when I think designers or in some cases, The USGA, go too far with their setup of speed of the greens. I think this is something that the players really take issue with even more than the false fronts. False fronts they know about and can play around. But when you combine that with unbelieveable green speed, it's hard at times to refer to that as fair. I've always felt like a player should have 2 options. The risk/reward option and the bailout. If only risk/reward is presented, I think that borders, if not crosses the line of fairness.

Is there any proof that a certain former #1 player has ever used steriods?

Gamesmanship has long been an accepted practice within the game and those who are strong enough mentally, ignore such advances from other players. Those who are not, fail. I think players who spit on greens, or in cups, break or throw clubs, or cuss out loud are far worse than those using gamesmanship. So breaking a club in anger is unacceptable to me at any level, much less at the professional level. Those guys know better. It should be met with an immediate fine and probation.

Most of the responses seem to indicate that while a fine is appropriate, that the action itself is not a big deal.

Though I've been on here a few days now, thought it might be best to introduce myself to the group. I'm from Texas, and when I play regularly, usually play to about a 5-8 handicap, though my lowest index was 2.6. I've played the game since I was a teenager, though I had clubs in my hand at around 3 or 4 years of age. Grew up a fan of Jack Nicklaus and have remained a fan of his my entire life. Although in reading the stories of Ben Hogan have come to admire the kind of player he was, and all that he fought thru to become the great player that he did. You'll find me to be brutally honest when it comes to my views on players, courses, and the game itself. I believe this to be a gentleman's game, believe the players to be human and not robots, but also don't believe the players are role models. I love the majors, especially The Masters and U.S. Open. My dream course is Pebble Beach and a close 2nd is Augusta.

I can't say whether or not I was referring to the player in question as apparently the mere mention of that name invokes anger here. So, I'll just say this. I admire and respect Duval greatly for his perserverance in his comeback bid. I would love to see him win a major and I hope he does. In my heart of hearts, I don't believe he will, but I really would like to see it happen. It just seems like he can't put together 4 rounds good enough to get there anymore. But again, lots of respect and admiration for his comeback.

I saw/heard an interview with a player who yesterday had a ball roll off the green on 13 and into the water. His contention was that he hit the center of the green. (he didn't; he hit the front edge of the green) and his comment was that when he designs courses he doesn't seek to "screw" (his word) the players like that. He felt he couldn't have done anything more than he did with respect to the shot selection. However, this morning on The Morning Drive, Paul Azinger made a comment that everyone nows when you hit the ball where this player did that it will roll into the water. So educated forum posters, what say you? If you saw this yesterday, did you see it as fair or unfair?

Actually there never was any 'act' there or here. I don't need to defend you know who. (apparently the mere mention of his name invokes anger now. LOL) I'll just comment from now on regarding current tournament play and where players are in relation to the lead, etc.

Well guys I guess I'll not respond to this anymore. Apparently breaking a club in anger on national tv is not a big deal.

And once again you'd be wrong. I am more than willing to criticize Tiger and his golf related issues when and where it is appropriate. I always have. I've even been outspoken, when asked, about his off course issues, even though in my opinion, it has nothing to do with evaluating his golf. No, everyone else is not wrong, and I've NEVER said that. That is yet another fabrication used with the intent to discredit anything I might say about others when they in fact fabricate things regarding Tiger. This is the part I don't understand. Why would anyone want to persist in behavior whereby they either condone, or actually participate in the furthering of fabrications about any player? Example: When the story broke about Tigers's infidelity, people persisted in saying it was fact that he'd been with 121 women when IN FACT it was NEVER proven to be factual. So why would ANYONE want anything to do with a statement like that? People persisted in saying that Tiger had a tooth taken out by a nine iron via hiw Wife and had plastic and reconstructive surgery to correct it. Yet, nothing was ever actually PROVEN to be factual about that. Yet it was repeated over and over again. People opined that he had had an affair with a neighbors daughter. Again, never proven to be factual, yet, people kept right on saying it. So my question for you is this. What is your view of those individuals that either started those rumors, or played along simply because they hate Tiger Woods?

For several decades The PGA Tour has been the gold standard of professional golf. It's where players from around the world have come to test their skills against the best in the world. When players talk of playing against the best, it's quite often, if not always, The PGA Tour that they mention. Other than The Open Championship, it's rare, if ever, that a player says "I can't wait to get to The European Tour to test myself against the best." So like it or not, the best play in America. Are you guys really good at The Ryder Cup? Absolutely! No question you guys are better at team golf than we are. But fortunately, golf is not a team sport but an individual sport and individual records are how the best are measured. 18 majors for Nicklaus, 14 majors for Tiger, 9 majors for Hogan are just 3 of several of our/the best to have ever played the game.

My point is what's he done on The PGA Tour other than his win at Quail Hollow. He's a great player, but he made the choice to skip this event and it is my belief that was a mistake on his part. Time will tell as his agenda is revealed for why he skipped the event.

Actually no I don't. Phil was an admitted gambler for years early on in his career. He was known to bet big and often on NFL games but especially on The Super Bowl. Heck, this week, he was bragging about taking money off of Dustin Johnson in a money game (i.e. bet) and he also won some money off Bill Kratzert in a practice round off the grounds of The TPC. So he continues to gamble. As to his run-in with Vijay Singh, it was well documented by TGC at the time the incident took place. In fact, a complaint had been filed during the course of play and that is where it started and it escalated in the locker room after the round had been completed. During the wedge controversy, Phil Mickelson did IN FACT state that HE believed the wedges to be illegal. The comment is out there in the public domain and HE made it. HE also made a statement that he didn't understand why the USGA had such an arbitrary way of approving clubs for play whereby according to HIS understanding of their process, that one guy alone made the decision on whether or not clubs were approved for play. Whether or not THAT aspect of his argument was true or not was never proven one way or the other as The USGA made no statement on the matter at the time. Clearly, Phil was unhappy with the situation, and made his own choice to handle it the way he did. As to his arthritic condition, he made the choice to keep it private as long as he did. On this matter I happen to agree with him for a couple of reasons. First, it's his private, medical information. NO ONE has the RIGHT to know about except he and his Doctor and then family or friends HE chooses to share that information with. WE as fans have NO RIGHT to know about it UNLESS HE chooses to share it with us, which he did. I feel exactly the same way about any person, regardless of profession, including you. It is YOUR PRIVATE information and I have no right to it unless you share it. The second reason is because for fans and Phil revealing it was a no-win situation. Those who dislike him would say it's an excuse for his failures on the golf course. His fans would use it as an excuse for those failures. And believe me when I tell you. When TGCDB was still up and running and he revealed that, the excuses were flying all day, everyday. On that particular site, any criticism of Phil MIckelson was met with swift and frequent personal attacks, which were condoned by those running that site as there was no moderator. Mind you, people can say what they want, but there should come a point where someone steps in and puts a stop to personal attacks. That did not happen there and is in part, I beleive, why that board no longer exists. In the end, Phil is just a man and isn't perfect. I like the guy personally as I think he represents the game well both on and off the golf course. But it doesn't mean he's perfect or that he's always right.

What I've read so far from most here is really disturbing. The notion that anyone would accept this as proper behavior on the golf course is, to say the least, disheartening. But on the other hand, it is refreshing to see a different perspective from those I've experienced on other sites. Let's just say that this topic of anger on the golf course usually revolves around one player in particular. But since so many here seem to be okay with this type of behavior I'm guessing we won't hear much about that since it's okay for the likes of Hoffman to actually break his club.

I watched most of the telecast yesterday so I heard the comments from Chamblee in the morning and last night as well. It seems Mr. Chamblee has heard our complaints as last night he was VERY complimentary of the career of one Mr. Tiger Woods. So hopefully he's going to move on now to the golf that is being played and leave this alone until we see or hear from Tiger again. But in his defense, it appears that he's either been reading the boards, or reading his emails/pm's or whatever. But I give him credit. He was much more tactful in his comments last night.

There's nothing won or lost here. It is a discussion board. The poster made a statement regarding Tiger Woods and The Masters that I believe was somewhat silly in theory. It is further my belief he made this comment to somehow diminish how Tiger plays at Augusta as somehow not valid in use as a barometer for where Tiger's game might be at. Now if he is right in theory, then it means that either Augusta is once again a pitch and putt for Tiger and therefore a pitch and putt for most of those in the tourney. Or, it means for those who didn't play well there or have never won there after multiple attempts, that they REALLY need some serious work on their games. For me, I simply believe that he's wrong and way off base with his theory. These guys are all very very good players or they wouldn't be on The PGA Tour and certainly wouldn't be playing in The Masters. (with the notable exceptions being some of the past winners who long ago passed their prime on The PGA Tour.) The fact is it takes very good play, smart play, and some luck to win any major, much less at Augusta. Yes, it takes a working knowledge of the course and more specifically the greens there to contend. But make no mistake, it takes talent to win there and that talent isn't solely based on "feeling comfortable there."

Hardly. Mr. Miller made a foolish comment about Tiger and Augusta and now he's paying for it. That's HIS fault.

I appreciate your reasoned and thoughtful response based on fact, not uninformed opinion. Believe me, this isn't intended as trolling. I've been fighting for what seems like years now to have reasoned discussion about Tiger Woods, the golfer. It's nearly impossible to find people that are reasonable in thought process when it comes to Tiger. Yes, Tiger has good memories of Augusta. So does Phil. Heck Phil has a love affair going on with the place to listen to him talk about the place. Point is, none of that guarantees either of them success at Augusta. It certainly doesn't guarantee them a win or even a top five. If it does, then what does that say about the rest of the field if we're essentially going to say before the event starts that Tiger and Phil are guaranteed a top 5 or a win?

I already have. I've said he should be fined for his actions, but I'll go a step further. Any player who commits this infraction should be fined and placed on probation. Rory Sabbatini should be suspended for 3 events for his recent actions, along with a $50K fine. $10K for Hoffman. Sabbatini should be placed on probation for the duration of the season with any further infraction resulting in his immediate suspension for the remainder of the season.

My point is that when Tiger does it, it's always worse than when someone else does the same or worse. Hoffman BREAKS his club on tv and it's "ho hum". If Tiger ever broke a club on tv we'd never hear the end of it. Heck Hoffman a year or two ago threw a putter in a lake at this tournament. Why no righteous indignation at those actions?

Because how often do we here from the haters how bad Tiger is for the game with his cussing and club-tossing? Yet Hoffman BREAKS his club on national television on the green and that's okay? Last year or two years ago Hoffman throws his club in a lake and that's okay? But somehow what Tiger does is somehow MUCH worse? Yeah, right!!! LoL Gotta love the hypocrisy of you guys.

I didn't make some silly claim like he did about Tiger and The Masters. If he feels he's right, let him back it up with facts.

Actually I asked a question with this post, using your statement as the jumping off point for discussion. Hey, I thought you weren't going to respond to me anymore? LOL