Open-Faced Club Sandwedge

You'd be right, I never really played either of those sports. My only "swinging sticks at balls" (teehee) experience is high school tennis. -Andrew

I would bet it's 3 things, then: 1) You really connected with that ball. 2) You hit a good spot on the fairway, and got great bounce/roll. 3) The measurement includes a dogleg you cut off, the tees weren't as far back as usual, the measurement may actually be wrong, etc., meaning subtracting the distance remaning from the "total distance" gave you 380, but in reality your ball didn't go that far. It could be any combination of those things. Either way, congrats. I don't mean to diminish what must have been a great swing. -Andrew

So, if you look at my posts (other threads than this), you may notice I jump in a lot to discuss the swing, even though I'm obviously not a very experienced golfer. It's because I'm an engineer, and an internet addict, and I've been learning everything I can learn online about the golf swing for the past several weeks. I've been trying to guess which things apply to my swing based on how my swing feels, and based on what the ball's doing. I've been doing pretty well, because the pro had a lot to say about all the things I was doing well at my first lesson. However, that lesson was also the first time I'd seen my own swing on video, and there were some things I couldn't feel myself doing. I had no idea how far I was swinging; I thought I was getting the shaft parallel to the ground, and I was actually getting it WAY past there. I also didn't realize the importance of holding some flex in my right knee throughout the swing, and I wasn't doing that. But throughout the two hour-long lessons I've had at that point, I've been looking at my swings on video and learning a lot about my swing. I think I understand it quite well at this point, but I'm not so great at repeating it with extreme accuracy yet. And really I think accuracy is what I need. I need the clubhead to come to the ball accurately; not low, not high, not inside, not outside, but on target. Also, my instructor has a term that comes from baseball, that he uses from time to time when I hit a push-fade, which is "the swing was good but the bat was late". I need to get good at making sure the bat wasn't early or late. I'll try to get a swing video up here at some point. But I guess I'm trying to say even though I don't actually strike the ball consistently yet, I feel I do understand quite a bit about how the golf swing works. -Andrew

It was helpful, in its way. It was encouraging, in that you got down to basically scratch, with pretty rapid improvement, once you had your swing at a point where the big flaws were eradicated. I'm left with the feeling that what I need to do is hit balls, but what I need to THINK about while I hit balls is how to remove timing mechanisms from my swing. Now that I've knocked out some big ones, I need to turn my attention to the generally smaller ones that remain. I did hear a few drills/exercises so far in this thread that I'm going to try out. Any more ways that people have used to take their existing swing, and make it put the middle of the clubface on the ball, would be appreciated. Other than that, I guess I'm down to hitting 1000 balls - paying careful attention to what's going right and what's going wrong in each swing. -Andrew

Another clarification I feel I should add: it's not that I (or the pro I'm working with) believe that my swing is perfect. It's that my swing, technique-wise, is so much better than the results I'm getting that fixing the very small flaws would be like installing a high-flow exhaust system on a car with thrown rods. Sure, the exhaust should theoretically improve performance, but it really isn't the concern at the moment. -Andrew

I would suggest, then, that you don't believe technique and coordination are two separate issues because your golf-swing coordination is so thoroughly developed, and developed so long ago, that you now take it for granted. For you, it's a swing flaw when you hit a fat shot. For me, it's because I literally missed that time. The next swing, using the same technique, might be a hit. I agree entirely. That's why I posted this thread. I'm at "good technique", and I need to get to "be able to repeat that over and over." I'm looking for ways to accelerate that process as much as possible, so I can get there before I've hit a ridiculously large number of balls. Extending is probably the key here; I have it on good authority that my setup is good. Any thoughts on drills to properly coordinate my extension? Sometimes I do it very well, other times not so well. Not true. My clubface is very square to my left arm throughout the backswing, but my release is often a little early or a little late. When the club gets to the ball, it's either not released enough (push-fade), or too released (pull-draw). Fine-tuning that timing is a coordination issue that I may need to find in the dirt. -Andrew Yep, my timing is hit-or-miss. I'm not consciously releasing it, but I need to get that timing to the point where it's consistent. Let's be clear regarding my current swing and my handicap: I've not yet used my current swing on a golf course. But based on your "if you mess things up, it's a swing flaw" theory: swing flaws are ingrained patterns in your swing which need to be changed for you to swing the club correctly. I don't currently have any. If one swing has me getting holding off the club much too late, and the next swing has me getting the club ahead of my hands, which swing flaw do I have? Do I have two simultaneous-but-contradictory swing flaws? To me the answer that makes sense is that the third swing, where I hit the ball straight and high and long, is "my swing". The other two were the results of trying to apply my good technique, but "missing". I'd post one if I had one. -Andrew

To your point: how long have you been playing golf? How many balls would you estimate you've hit over that time? -Andrew

I should rephrase: the pro says my swing technique isn't the issue. Obviously my swing timing (open/closed face) is not consistently correct yet, and the exact location of the head of the club at impact is sometimes an inch off (which is generally either an inch outside for a shank, or an inch low for a fat shot). The pro insisted to me that these issues are not arising from the technique I use (now) to swing the club, but rather the coordination it takes to pinpoint the timing of the release and the location of the club head; coordination which will come as I put in more time and hit more balls. -Andrew

So my brief back-story is I played this game all summer in 2008, including taking a lesson with a pro. I had grand plans for getting really good during the 2009 season, but then I actually never picked up my clubs. I picked the game back up 2 months ago, and last week and yesterday I had lessons with a pro. During the first lesson, the pro pointed out a few things I was doing wrong, including locking out my right knee on the backswing, and overswinging severely. He also tweaked my setup position slightly. I practiced a lot last week, and made excellent progress incorporating those changes. By the end of my second lesson yesterday, the pro was telling me that as of now, the reason I'm shooting 105 instead of sub-90 is not my swing technique. It's my contact. Shanks, fats, face open, and face closed are now my misses. My swing, in the words of a pro, is not my concern right now. His advice was to keep swinging the way I'm swinging, and hit 1000 balls. Then, as a next step, hit 1000 more. So, I guess my question is, when the issue is squaring the clubface at the right instant (not early for a pull-draw or late for a push-fade), and putting the middle of the face on the ball (not putting the hosel on the ball or putting the club into the dirt behind the ball), what can I do to improve besides hitting 1000 balls? It's not that I'm not willing to put in the practice. I fully intend to hit those 1000 balls. But if I can do something in addition, drills or whatever, that will make me improve faster, then I want to do that as well. Any insight? -Andrew

bwell, how did you arrive at the "about 380" figure in your post? Was this GPS-measured, or based on a calculation involving the hole's length and the distance you ended up from the green? If it's the former, then I would suspect maybe some kind of crazy cart-path bounce, or you hit the exact right spot on a hard fairway and it bounced/rolled forever. If it's the latter, then I'd suspect the course measurements played a trick on you, and it was actually a realistic crushed drive, rather than a ridiculous WTF drive. -Andrew

Narrowing your stance can help, at least for training purposes. A narrow stance doesn't allow you to slide all that much before you lose balance and fall over. Also, instead of thinking about your swing moving back away from the ball, you could try thinking of your left shoulder moving toward your right knee in the backswing. Thinking of the shoulders turning with respect to the knees, rather than just thinking about the shoulders turning with respect to the ball, could help you stop the slide while still making a complete turn (i.e. without getting "armsy"). I'm sure iacas's advice is correct, but perhaps these things might help you implement it. -Andrew

Yeah, that's the challenge when fixing an overswing; you have to decrease the backswing in the arms and wrists without decreasing it in the shoulders. I'm working on that myself, and something that seems to be helping me is keeping my arms more connected with my torso in the backswing, and thinking about keeping my hands passive. If I do those things, I have to make a full shoulder turn in order to get the club back. Extraordinary hand coordination? I don't really know. But what I do believe, is that for overswingers, shortening the backswing as a first step, and then learning how to swing the club quickly despite the short backswing as a second step, will encourage development of good timing to make sure the "whip" (which naturally incorporates lag) happens right. I'm no pro. The internet, a few lessons with PGA pros, and a decent understanding of body mechanics have taught me a little bit about how a swing is supposed to work, but about drills and training techniques I really don't have the first clue. -Andrew

I watched your swings from the "300 yard video" thread, and in my opinion (which is not all that valuable unless others corroborate), I think your slight-to-moderate overswing may be hurting your ability to lag the club. At the top, when you've overswung, you have to cast the club a little just to get the downswing started. With a more controlled backswing, the club doesn't have to move until its proper place in the timing of the swing, which in my view is where lag really comes from. I believe if you take a shorter backswing, and make sure you have a timing sequence where your hip bump starts the swing, followed by body rotation, followed by arm swing, then you will naturally have lag in your wrists, due to the "whipping" motion that the proper timing sequence will create. -Andrew

I need larger grips on my clubs (bought them off the shelf, but I have much larger than average hands). 1) What's the best option to have this done? Within easy reach, there's a Dick's, a Golf Galaxy, and a course pro shop that does club fitting. 2) How long will I need to leave my clubs? 3) Roughly how much does it cost? Andrew

I wish you good luck; I'm struggling hard with the same issue. It may or may not be more difficult to overswing keeping your swing in; I actually swing too far inside (trying to fix that) AND I overswing badly. You see how on that first swing your club head peeks out in front of your chin? On my swing the club head peeks out in front of my chest. -Andrew

Seriously, I think I would only get discouraged if I did this calculation. Maybe once I get my ball-striking to where I actually think of it as pretty good, I'll track this stat to determine how to focus my practice time. -Andrew

I don't actually have the video. It's possible my pro can email it to me; he had a digital camera and laptop with swing analysis software on it, that we were using to look at my swings during the lesson. He never used the term breakdown, he just stressed the need to shorten the backswing, and he looked carefully at my arm position and said he thought it was the wrists that needed fixing, not the arms. My left arm is definitely staying straight at the elbow, but it's flexing a lot at the shoulder, with my elbow coming across my body as if I was doing a shoulder stretch. I'm going to hit the range this weekend and pay attention to keeping my fingers and thumb of my left hand firm, and see if that helps me achieve the right amount of backswing. I have another lesson next Tuesday; hopefully I can hit enough balls this weekend to get some sort of timing back in my swing, with the shorter backswing. -Andrew

You raise an interesting point. I do have a hitchhiker's thumb, but if I was gripping the club firmly with my pinky, ring, and middle fingers of my left hand, it wouldn't be able to go as far as it seemed to be going on the video. So maybe that's my problem; opening the fingers a little to let the handle of the club keep going back. I'll check this out when I have a chance to swing a club next; and see if I stop the club better by keeping my thumb and fingers of my left hand stronger. -Andrew

My left arm is staying extended. It stays straight and kind of folds across me (left elbow goes toward right shoulder), and my right arm flexes the normal way it should in a conventional swing. The issue is that once all that is done, my arms and shoulder turn pause at the top before starting the downswing, but the club just keeps on going. When the club finally stops, my arms and shoulders are okay, but my wrists have allowed the club to go way past parallel. I don't know what kind of "special golf glove" you're referring to. Do you know a brand/product name so I could check it out? -Andrew

You had one already. -Andrew

You have to get your hands ahead of the ball and keep them there. It should be a VERY different sensation than your normal swing, and probably something that'll require some coaching. I don't have your answer from my own experience, obviously, but I'll reiterate that there has to be a reason you don't see any scratch or plus handicaps with their hands behind the ball. I think it's because they either change their swing to get their hands ahead of the ball before they get that good, or they never get that good. That's not the easiest thing for you to hear, I'd think, but that trend really seems to indicate that you have to make a change if you want to see continued improvement. -Andrew

I had my first lesson in 2 years yesterday, and I was encouraged to find out in the video analysis that I'm hitting a lot of positions, particularly impact (the most important one) pretty well in my swing. But the pro was able to point out a couple of big no-nos that I have to eliminate as a first step, to have a swing that is conducive to consistent ball-striking. The first one is how far I take the club back with my wrists. According to the pro, the position of my shoulders and arms at the top of my backswing is fine, or at least close enough that it's not my concern at the moment. However, the position of my club head is pretty close to John Daly's, because when my shoulders and arms stopped, my wrists just kept going. The pro was able to get me to see what my wrist position at the top should be, and had me try to hit some balls with my backswing stopping at that position, and I had a lot of trouble stopping my wrists. I would feel like I was stopping them, but he'd show me on video I was still going way past parallel. Any tips on drills or ways to train myself to stop my wrists at the proper position in the backswing? -Andrew

Re-grip the club before your final swing. This is a must for me, at least. If I've gripped it and taken a practice swing or two, it's not necessarily still lined up. I'm also planning on getting larger grips put on my clubs, since my grips are definitely too small for my hand size. Where in Northern VA do you play? I play Prince William all the time, and yesterday I started taking lessons from the pro at Chantilly National. -Andrew

Sounds like you've gotten very good at flipping the club. From the distances you posted, you must execute the flip with a great deal of club-head speed, which is conducive to good golf shots, but not so conducive to consistency. Consider this: nobody on tour releases early, or in other words, adds loft at impact. I tend to believe this is because nobody who flips the club has ever gone from kinda good to really good, without fixing their club-flipping ways. Food for thought. -Andrew

Are you kidding? He's built like a powerlifter! Not that long drivers should ideally be built like powerlifters - they'd benefit frtom more flexibility and longer levers - but powerlifters tend to look a lot like this guy. Compact, thickly built, really big lats and quads, and a good layer of fat covering it all up, since cutting calories and maximizing muscle development are in opposition to each other. -Andrew