dirkduffer

If that's one of the more ridiculous statements, then you must be new to this board. I agree with the other poster. Depending on the club, many clubs are EXACTLY as he described. They don't want to piss off certain members. Perhaps a member is also on the board. Or perhaps they bring a lot of clients to the club or have $5,000 dining/drink bills each month. I've seen an occasional marshal mention pace of play to a member and the member went off on the marshal talking about how he's embarrassing him in front of his wife. A few hours later, the member was in the pro shop ripping the pro a new one. Still fuming about how he pays his dues like everyone else and he's not going to be told how to play his game. It DEFINITELY happens. Hell, I was on the golf committee and we couldn't even get those members to agree on pace and protocol.

I concede. You're right. I played a couple of public courses years ago and it was jammed packed...and mostly with hackers who had no clue. You couldn't play through anyway. 5 hour rounds were the norm apparently. I told the starter when I went off at 4p (sunset at 7), I should have no problem finishing as I normally play 1 1/2-2hr rounds. Ended at dark with 3 holes to play. I guess muni/public courses have a different tempo. Private/semi-private was a different experience. I played 20 rounds/month usually and can't see how I could have done that on a muni/public.

Well, technically, it does matter which 9 holes he plays. If he's just out for a stroll, then maybe not. But for handicap purposes, he's supposed to play the holes, in the order they are laid out, and to which his handicap is established. The slope and rating are for specific 9s or loops or combinations...not just any 9 holes you play. That's also why you don't go around. You should play through. And if you're walking, even more to the point. What? Are you going to walk down the cart path in front of a group while they wait for you to clear so they don't hit you? Why not play up? There's no reason to not let a single come up, putt out first, and move on (assuming there's room in front of them).

I have a hard time believing every other group is a foursome and then this single shows up. There are frequently 3 somes. Or, if he's a better player, maybe join him into a fivesome. That opens options for playing wolf or better skins games. But to say "there are no non-foursome groups" is kind of a stretch I'd guess. We had a group of 15 that regularly played three 5-somes. Almost everyone was single-digit hcp. We played wolf, skins, and teams (two best balls in each group for team score). Fun, and we didn't hold up any other groups. But if a single comes out late Saturday morning, IF there was even a way to let him off, he'd have to expect a full field and not to play through.

That's a perfect play through method, but oddly enough, the people you usually need to play through don't know or respect that. I think a lot does have to do with education (and a little with arrogance). How many times have you been sitting 80-150 out and the foursome in front of you only has two on the green and the other two in a bunker or 20 yd chip to get on. Perfect time to waive you up. You hit. They come up. You putt (or come up...hopefully you're not lying 5 with another 2 or 3 to get on). Putt out. They might appreciate getting a read. You're on to the next tee and they're still 4-5 minutes of putting to finish. Unfortunately, if you gave this scenario from tee to green to MOST groups, they wouldn't really know when the best time to let you through would be. So, unfortunately, they often don't. To that extent, education would help. Maybe have some cheap etiquette pamphlets on the carts. Budding golfers always looking for the next time might just read it! But to the arrogance part, I've come up on people MANY times where they are still teeing off when I get to the box. They pretend like they don't see you. Finish teeing off (wide open hole). Then you stand there and stare at them for 10 minutes while they hit their next shot and help their buddy look for his hook into the treeline. At our private course, kids are notorious for this (and some learn it from their parents [see my earlier post]) (although some of the younger kids (11-13 who pass a player test) seem to almost go overboard to be polite). The high school golf team of spoiled country club brats and their hacker friends, you know, the same ones that don't respect cart path signs, tear up carts, don't repair pitch marks or sand divots, throw clubs, damage cups when putting flags back, ... you know who I'm talking about. Education isn't the problem there. Good marshaling is still required. At one club I played, marshals didn't even say anything about pace. They just gave you a paper that was essentially a traffic warning. They gave them for any infractions (carts beyond the "carts exit here" signs, pace of play, etc). Red paper was a warning. Cart number was recorded. Next offense and they asked you to leave. Pretty stiff. Probably started a lot of loud "discussions", but the rest of the field probably appreciated it.

I frequently play by myself. I try to play at off times. Used to play at all private club and more recently started playing at semi-private. I am patient knowing that my 1:30 round is very fast. Most people (especially because they know me) rarely have a problem letting me slide through. Worst case, I'll skip up a hole if there is room. But the a-holes that don't let anyone play through or think that singles have no rights when there are 3 holes open in front of them might deserve being hit into. In any event, I find there are a few types of problem slow-players: unskilled and uneducated, low-skill and trying, and usually skilled but arrogant. Descriptions and solutions follow: Unskilled/uneducated: Can't blame them. They just don't know. I remember being a 30+ hcp before being a 4. I've seen kids trying to be respectful rushing their putts or picking up 20 footers. When I play through, I tell them they have a right to enjoy their round and further tell them about proper ways to let people play through. They should have fun and not worry about me staring them down from 85yds out just to have me wait on the next tee bc they're 160yds down the fairway rushing again. Solution: first, have either days or times where you let better golfers go off first. The weekly foursome of single digit handicappers have priority from 7am to 9am so the whole field isn't backed up. Maybe have a prebooking rule that low handicap or singles can go book 7 days in advance versus 4 for others. The proshop should screen unknown golfers. If they are 20+ hcp, just rattle off some etiquette rules before they go out. "We focus on pace of play for everyone's enjoyment. If you have room in front of you and a group or a single is waiting on you, please let them play through." And don't blame women for slow play. Many are great golfers. If they suck, then they might just fall into the general "unskilled/uneducated" category. And then have marshals enforce the pace of play policy... Low-skill/trying: This might be your group of once a month golfers, a mixed-group of men and women or kids, older guys trying to break 100, a business outing with a few sandbaggers and a noobie, or whatever. It's great seeing these guys out enjoying the game. Many of them take it kind of seriously, low-stakes wagering, or whatever. The problem is they drive about 200 but, like someone else mentioned, think they drive 300 so they wait for the fairway to clear. But they're trying. Of course, the other problem is they drive it just long enough to go deep in the woods. At least the ladies with the 120y drives are just dinking it down the middle of the fairway. These are typically the people who might not be playing ready golf or often spend 5 minutes a hole looking for balls. I remember gauging my game's improvement not by my score but by the number of balls I lost. Probably the single best piece of advice for them to speed play is to limit time looking for balls, play provisionals, and let other groups play through if you're going to spend the 5 minutes looking. And since within your foursome you're probably going to look for balls for 30 minutes per round, that's a large part of the delays. Solution: pro shop/marshals watch for lost ball/play through etiquette. Maybe have cards on the carts with a few etiquette tips like for lost balls. Skilled but arrogant: Several groups of old stogy men at my private club thought they owned the course. They probably used to be great golfers. Now they are older and slower. One guy (on the board with me) said "a round of golf should take as long as it takes to get through a fifth of whiskey". He didn't mind 5 hour rounds. He was still single digit hcp, but wasn't in a hurry for anyone. One day I was a single coming up behind him around dusk. I was stuck behind him on 17 (par 3). He didn't let me through there or on 18. He was with another guy and their two wives. Took about 30 minutes for those last two holes. Of course, I couldn't hit my approach on a reachable par 5 for 10 minutes while they hit 3 (or more) on and putted out. It was too dark to see my approach by then so I just hit and hoped. All they had to do was let me play in with them or let me tee off on 18. I'd have been out of their way in 3 minutes. None of them could have reached me on my drive so they could hit away as soon as I got to my ball. Would have cost them maybe 3 minutes of waiting and not affected them at all plus I'd have finished my round appropriately. Often these cocky young guys or stogy old guys don't want to respect smaller, better, or faster groups. They KNOW the rules. They just don't care. I think these are the worst of the slow-play offenders. And, like the guy in my story, what are you going to do? He's on the board (as was I). The pro isn't going to cross him. I guess just beat him at the member-guest or the next skins game. In general, though, hopefully you have a pro that will talk with members or other offenders who think they own the course and have no reason to not let people play through (or play in with them). Having said all that, if the course if fairly full and there isn't room to play through anyway, faster groups have to learn to just deal with it. Full courses only move as fast as the slowest group. Outside of the marshals doing their jobs, the other option includes smaller groups joining up. When I was a single, if I ran into heavy traffic, I'd just play two or three balls or work on my putting (if nobody was waiting) or I'd join up with other guys and then be patient if they were hackers. In the end, it's all about respect. More golfers need to respect other people on the course whether thats being patient with noobies or letting smaller/faster/better groups play through.

I'm looking forward to Rush and I think he'll do amazing things for the Golf Channel and maybe even golf in general. First, you know he's going to talk about it on his radio show which has like 12 million listeners. So that'll pump ratings for the show. In fact, I bet it beats Barkley's Project. Also, many of his listeners are probably golfers. Should be great for ad revenue pricing for GC. Rush is a decent golfer anyway. Probably much better than Ray and surely better than Chuck. Ray just isn't funny. He reads from writers and didn't deliver on the Project. Rush ad libs for a living. And Chuck is just naturally funny. I think Rush's show will be very entertaining. He gets a chance to pontificate. Haney hopefully won't be on strike three of the Project. Actually, Haney is the biggest buffoon out there. For such a great teacher, his students didn't seem to learn jack. And now Tiger can't pull it together so he bailed. I don't see what the big deal is about Haney. Looks like any other teaching pro. On a separate note, does anyone know if they get paid to teach the pros? I read an interview with Haney and I got the impression that they basically trade out "coaching" the pros in exchange for the publicity it brings them. Haney can charge more for being Tiger's coach...that's his pay. Is that right?

I think I read that the average drive on the PGA Tour is 281 and on the Nationwide is like 296. I asked someone about that once, why guys who hadn't made it to the big league were out driving the A players. His answer was very interesting. First, "average" drive on tour is calculated by averaging two drives on two holes that are basically in opposite directions to cancel out any wind advantage/disadvantage. It doesn't tell you if they, for some reason, decided to lay off or hit a 3W or got no roll in the rough or how firm the fairways are on any particular day. There is a different number for "longest" and it's almost always from something like windy, high altitude, downhill.... and doesn't come close to representing the "average" drive. Second, the Nationwide tour, he pointed out, is generally comprised of younger golfers. I thought perhaps the PGA tour guys were just more worried about accuracy than distance, but his point was interesting and might be valid. But in any event, the AVERAGE drive of the BEST players in the world is only over 280. The lowest on the list I think was around 260. And I agree. If you're not measuring with GPS/laser, then you don't really count.

Similar college math: How ever many people a dude says he's been with, divide by 3. How ever many people a chick says she's been with, multiply by 3.

Well, I'm fat (Obese according to my Wii Fit), ugly, and pretty much broke (and if I have any cheese left, Obama will redistribute that in short order), have no friends (black or otherwise), but I did marry a pretty hot chick...and I play a lot of golf which is pretty amazing.

Well, on behalf of Charles Barkley, I'll accept your $1000. And you better pay up. Watch the Hank Haney project. Charles, in his groove during the third episode I think, was smashing nearly every drive on the launch monitor 300 - 330. He's 6'7 I think and weighs probably 280+ (but your bet is not about that and doesn't make exceptions). And if you know the point of the show, I GUARANTEE he's over a 20 hcp right now. He might not AVERAGE 300 if you count his MANY duffs, but to say a 20 hcp can't hit 300+...well, you're a fool. And you're $1000 poorer. Email me and I'll tell you where to send my check. Incidentally, I'm a low teen hcp and am frustrated that I can't hit 300. My longest downhill drive is still only 298. My average carry is about 245 with average drive of about 255. I did fly a drive 292 into a greenside bunker once when I was a 25 hcp, but that was with a steady 30 knot tailwind (windsock confirmed). A big guy whose a natural athlete in high altitude even without the wind can probably put it out there 300 on occasion...and still carry a 20hcp. Half of golf is putting and another 30% is approaches/short game. A 300 yd drive doesn't matter if you can't work the other 3 strokes per hole.

I've only broken 80 twice, but I noticed that something seems to be overlooked frequently: chipping. Sure, you need to know how to putt. But to putt, you need to be on the green (assuming you're not using the Texas wedge). If you're not breaking 80, I'll bet you're not 18/18 GIR and three putting a bunch. I'm shooting mid to low 80s mostly now and just recently found the importance of

If you're married or have a steady girlfriend, you shouldn't be getting calluses on your hands. Oh wait. You're talking about golf. In that case, I don't know. But I stopped wearing a golf glove recently (one dark tan hand, one bright white hand) and found that I didn't need the glove anymore. I just got the Winn Xi7(?) grips and they're so soft and "grippy" that I seem to have better feel without the glove. I needed the glove with my old fake tour wrap golf pride whatevers. I'm starting to think the Xi7s are a little too soft, though. I might experiment with one of their firmer grips. I don't think I like the cords though. I'm playing about 7 rounds a week now (multiple rounds on multiple days) and without the glove, I noticed I'm starting to get calluses at the junction of my fingers (middle ring and pinky) on both hands and the outer edge of my left thumb. Harder on left hand (I'm right handed). I use a 10-finger grip (no overlap).

I'll tell you what makes a course "women-friendly"... It's when women learn to quit taking so long on the course! I will never understand why a foursome of women will take 25% longer on a hole/round than men...and not just because of handicaps or skills. I can't tell you how many times I've watched from 180 yards out a bunch of women on the green, none of them over a putt, discussing something. Then they'll go to the carts, put the clubs up, count some strokes, discuss something, and NOT MOVE! I don't want to hit because I might pull/push a shot, but come on already! Or how about the countless times one will hit, they'll watch the ball, and then the other woman walks over to her ball 10 yards away (lateral) and then begin to explore her options (change clubs a few times, discuss something with her cartmate, etc.) You should have been thinking about your shot while your playing partner was hitting. And, women are notorious for being less likely to let faster groups/singles play through. If you want women-friendly courses, have women start being more friendly.

Although, I did see someone at the Masters that was decked out in TM/Adidas clubs and clothes, but somehow snuck in a FJ glove! I wish I could remember who it was, but it jumped out at me...and I had the DVR going so no mistake!

Sounds kind of like BS to me, and I have a reason for that: They charged you for two separate carts. If you and your buddy had just played without the gf baggage, it would have been just two 18-hole cart fees apparently...which you were okay with. Since your gf rode, they charged you extra? Why? Well, if it were a third player, you could understand that perhaps you're driving the cart a LITTLE more (back and forth to the ball) and driving more on the fairways which could require more maintenance (on top of the extra greens fees for the divots/putting/etc wear and tear). But, your gf is just going to your ball every time. NO extra mileage. So why charge the extra $? Because of the extra 140#?? What if I have a big staff bag. You gonna charge me more for the extra weight?? Maybe they'll start charging you extra for bringing your own balls (like a corking fee for bringing your own wine to a restaurant) or carrying more than 20 tees in your bag. Honestly, whether it's customary or not, it sounds like BS. They charged it because they knew you'd pay it.

I'd guess the USGA statistic is at least slightly skewed in favor of low handicappers (says 10% below 6; should be 10% below 10?). I'd guess most good golfers keep a handicap either because it's required by their club, they play in tournaments (club or otherwise), or because they are serious about golf and want to track their progress. Rec/Casual golfers might be less likely to keep a handicap. As others have posted, and as in our club, you can't even play in any tournaments without an established handicap...even if it's a 36! I don't know if their handicap chart includes all tracked handicaps or just GHIN. Our club recently went off GHIN to a third-party USGA conforming system. But, I've talked to PLENTY of "golfers", many of whom don't have current (or any) handicaps. So, if *every* so called golfer kept a handicap, I'm sure single-digit would be top 10%. As for what it takes, in two years of playing daily, I went from 38 (course adjusted) to 14 and could see myself around +1 to 1 (would we call that minus 1??) with another year or two of daily golf. If *every* golfer took it seriously, I'd bet Joe Average could easily be a 15, meaning 50% would be better than a 15. It's not that way just because so many people are very occasional golfers. I guess the importance of the statistic depends on what you are trying to do. If you're trying to enter the City Amateur, you should ask them what the typical handicap is (usually they have a limit of 5 or 6; US Am is 1.2 I think). Knowing that you're better than 10% of established handicaps may or may not be relevant. If it's just for bragging, then good news. I'd argue that if the chart says you're in the top 15%, you're probably really in the top 10% of all golfers.