j_moo

Michelle is the exception. That's why she was insistent on competing with the men. Her never making a PGA cut tells me most of the LPGA would struggle from the back tees.

Played with a few women who can't hit the ball more than 100 yards, but they were fast. Hit, cart, hit, no practice swing no pre shot routine, makes me nervous just watching them. Then again, they don't worry about club, wind, lie, etc., or even read the green. We probably play a par 4 in about the same amount of time but I would take more time per shot. So handicap doesn't really indicate how fast you play, other than perhaps how often you have to look for your ball. I also believe much of slow play is due to courses overbooking tee time. I've never been on a well space course that's slow.

which brings the course down to about 6400...

We played the round in 4 hours. Any faster we'd be skipping shots. Why, especially when the group behind was not waiting? When the group ahead gets to par 5s in two and you have 100 players struggling to get there on par4s, it's difficult to catch up. Again, the 1-2 shot gap is not because we were slow. It's because how the course was setup, par5 after a par3. We played the same pace as the group ahead.

Played a round this weekend with a couple of near scratch players from the tip at just over 7100. Would never do it myself, but one guy knows me and thought I can handle it. Ended up shooting one of the lowest round in the group. Probably wouldn't want to do it all the time but moving back does challenge you to get better. I remember when I first move from the white to the blue tees. I thought it was crazy. But can't imagine myself playing from the white anymore.

Just curious, which tee did you play from? The average LPGA course is about 6400. Wondering if they would do just as well from 6800.

Played Redhawk in Temecula from the tips with some near scratch players. We were the 2nd group out behind a 3some and waited a little on a few holes. We could have finished maybe 5 minutes faster but played the round in 4 hours riding. We gave short putts and no one played slow. Not sure how you 4somes play any faster than that without rushing.

Agree about waiting and the group behind. So if the group ahead don't waive up on a par 3, usually don't try to rush to make up the shot. If we play at the same pace, won't have to wait again on the next par 3 or on par 5s trying to get on in 2. Unfortunately here in southern CA, the courses are way overbooked on the weekends everywhere. Possible to play year round, but 5+ hrs is the norm. Generally, the marshals are laid-back, but there are always exceptions I guess.

Did management do anything concrete to make up for your inconvenience? They appeased you and you were happy with how they handled it. Fine. But there's no guarantee the marshal is not still there or at another course yelling at people.

There is a difference between gap and pace. There can be no gap and no waiting if all groups play at the same pace, which rarely, if ever, happens. What usually happens is the course is overbooked so that everyone is playing at the pace of slowest group in front of them at the time, which can be multiple groups. Kind of like how traffic jams happen without an accident, too many cars stepping on the breaks. Slow play is not always due to players being slow, most of the time, it's courses being overbooked. If the course is playing at a 5 hour pace, it doesn't matter what gap is between two groups as long as they all play at the same pace. It is often interpreted that the group with the gap in front is playing at a slower pace. We played in 4 hours and the group behind didn't wait. We didn't slow anyone down. We could have closed the gap but the overall pace of the course would still be 4 hours. Nobody likes to be stuck behind the slow truck in traffic. However, even if you pass the truck, you're still stuck in traffic.

Every group plays at different paces at different times during the round and therefore there are different gaps between groups. Unless the gap in front of your group is more than 1 hole or continously getting larger, and the group behind is waiting on every shot, I'd say you are probably playing to the pace you should. Otherwise, you should probably let them play thru. I just don't see the benefit of rushing to be right behind the group ahead only to have to wait on every shot. If the course is playing a 5 hr round because of overbooking, why pretend it's not?

I was watching for the group behind like a hawk on every shot, thinking they were about to bear down on us and we had to let them thru, which really distracted me and ruined my round. They waited for us twice after the 4th hole, once on a par 3 for a couple of us to putt out and a par 5, they were waiting to get on in two. Not really reasons to let them thru and both were on the back nine. Not in the front where the marshal was working. It really bothered me that not only did the marshal not understand why we only appeared to be behind, he didn't even see the group behind were playing at the same pace. Not to belabor the point but, 4 hours on a Saturday! Even if they wait on every shot, can they really complain anyone was slow? Besides, isn't that the most any golfer can realistically want from a weekend round ~4 hrs, no waiting, and no one pushing from behind? Like someone mentioned before, we're paying customers playing a recreational game. If I was treated like that at a restaurant, the manager would have apologized and comped us some drinks. The GM at Mile Square, however, doesn't give a flea on a dead horse's back about its patrons. Not suggesting what anyone should or should not do, but be warned if you are thinking about going there. It's a shame that it's come to this, but bext time anyting happens on a course anywhere, I'll be calling the clubhouse right away. If courses are not monitoring their employees, we patrons can only complain to let it be knowd.

Wondering if there is anyone in the area interested in playing together on the weekends regularly? Also would like to know which courses you would like to be in the rotation?

I think even Mary Lou is bored.

We teed off just after 1PM on a Saturday, about 10 min behind our originally scheduled tee time. Funny how courses never apologize for over booking and making us wait. But that's another topic... The 1-2 shot behind is really caused by how the 4th and 5th holes are. The 4th being a par 3, automatically makes us 1 shot behind, having to wait for them to finish putting. Conveniently, the marshal wasn't there to tell them to wave us up. The group ahead being better players, were able to get near the green on the par 5 5th in two shots. So when we got to the 5th tee, they were near the green. To the marshal, it looked like we were behind. While we never waited for them, we never fell more behind. A few times, we would step up to the tee to see them just finishing their approach shots. To me, this was the perfect pace, not waiting and not making the group behind wait, and all around 4 hours. What more can you ask for on a weekend afternoon round? I told the marshal about us waiting the 1st 4 holes but he ignored it. Went to the pro shop after the round and they apologized. While the pro shop staff have always been great in my experience, we felt the marshal ruining our rounds called for more than just apologetic words. So I emailed the GM and he never apologized. Just said that he can't verify my story. When I told him that we will not be returning to his course unless he did something, he said he's "sorry" that we decided to not return to his course. Needless to say, not going back there again.

A few things are in effect: Courses for horses - I've been to course for the first time and shot great rounds. They just fit my game better Some days are better than other - when you're hitting it well, you only see fairways and greens Learning to play a course is part of the game - I had some of my worst rounds on my home courses, until I learned how they should be played. Also true with the big boys, ie., Augusta and Sawgrass Conditions - a tournament round, casual weekend outing, and golfing trip plays differently. Not to mention the setup and conditions such as weather and maintenance of the courses Playing partners - always helps when playing with people who knows how to play the course. Even when it's the home course, it seems there's always someone who knows something more Can't capture everything. That's why index is an estimate of one's potential and not how the golfer is suppose to play every round. Even tour pros can have 10 shot swings from round to round on the same course.

Played Mile Square in SoCal Orange County a few weeks back, 4some with a couple of 100 shooters. The 1st 4 holes, we waited every shot, then it opened up. The 4th being a par 3 and 5th a par 5, I think, contributed to there being a gap between us and the group ahead. As soon as we stepped onto the 5th tee, the marshal told us to speed up and continued to do so every other hole until the back nine. We made the turn in 2 hours and finished in 4. We were, at most 1-2 shots behind the group ahead and the group behind never waited on the front nine after the 4th (briefly for 2 holes on the back). How fast do you have to play if we were well ahead of the 4:30 required by the course?

Took some time to get used to the new clubs but I am more consistent. Do you fight the hooks and in doing so, push it right? If so, you might need stiffer shafts. Getting the lie right also helps. But I'm sure you already got plenty of advice. Best of luck.

Have you had your clubs fitted by a professional club fitter? I did recently and it's made a big difference.

Again, this is the PGA where millions of dollars are on the line. Having a RO/group is not too much to ask. I'm sure there are plenty of people happy to volunteer for free. Also, they don't have to explain every rule for every shot. But simply saying, "ball in hazard" or "player now hitting 3rd shot" would have prevented all this. Don't compare this to the speed limit. There's no preventing that, but this is within reason. It's been mentioned many times it's the player's responsibility to follow the rules. But it's not. The organizing body is responsible. Otherwise, why the video reviews and watching if the players are following the rules. Either you trust them or you don't. If you don't, which is the case here, then don't make it their burden to be responsible. Rules are made by people for different situations. Just as there are different rules for college and pro basketball, there should be different rules for pro golf. Also, just because these are the rules do not make them correct. Rules also change to fit the times. How many of you think Gallaraga should have been given a perfect game or baseball and soccer should have instant replay?

Okay, but that doesn't help you in a fairway bunker, especially at the pro level. If probing is the issue, then you shouldn't be allow to walk on the sand, which tells you more about the condition of the sand than grounding the club. In DJ's situation, no advantage was gained by his grounding the club. Understand about making rules easy to enforce, but to the extent that it makes no distinction between accidentally doing something that has no impact on the outcome and intentionally cheating to affect the score just doesn't feel right. I bet if you were to test all PGA players on the rules, the majority of them would probably fail. See what happened to Julie Inkster yesterday. In no other professional sport are the players asked to keep score and be mindful of all the rules like golf. If tennis can have 9 officials plus instant replay per match, golf can certainly have a RO per group in a major. As much as possible, take the burden off of the players and help them from committing infractions. This is one of the few sports where you don't have to do anything you are not suppose to. What's obvious to one is not always obvious to all. That's why they have a person holding a sign with a number on it indicating downs in football games. It might have been obvious to the official, but certainly not to DJ and some of the commentators. If it was obvious and important, then it should be important enough to make obvious to even the most casual of observers. People cheat because they think they can get away with it. Since this is professional golf where every shot has cameras on it, there is no way any golfer can cheat. Suzanne Patterson a few years ago moved a leave and accidentally moved the ball unperceived by her or her playing partner. Only slow motion video showed the ball actually moved. This is the pros, not us playing at the local muni. Unlike other sports, rule infraction in golf is preventable. They already have spotters/marshalls all over the course indicating when balls go OB or where it entered a water hazard. Why not take more of the burden away from the players and make sure the rules are enforced. What happened to DJ is not enforcing the rules, it is catching him after he broke a rule. Enforcing the rule would be to make sure he clearly understood he was in a hazard and can't ground his club, so that he doesn't ground the club. If your tennis matches had even just one ump per match, there would probably be no cheating. And not having umps at matches is the fault of the organization.

Not sure if getting the ball close should be the goal. Rather, I would suggest focus on hitting your landing target because the ball will roll differently depending on conditions. Understanding how the conditions effect the roll is an important part of getting it close and only comes with experience, like reading a putt. But if you are confident with the stroke and hitting your target, getting it close should not be far behind.

Sounds like how I was playing for years. Didn't hit many greens, but mostly not too far off so the up and downs were not too difficult, well half of the time. I don't know about you, but it made me start just aiming for the center of the green and not the flag stick.

I was 4 over through 13 holes. Figured the 14th, a par 5 would be my last since it was getting dark. Couldn't even see if my 100 yard 3rd shot was on the green. It was 15-20 ft and made the putt. Played the next three holes 2 over in the dark for a 77. My cart partner had a GPS app on his cell phone and gave me a bad yardage on another par 5. Should have par it at worst, but took a bogey. 4 fairways, 9 GIR, and 31 putts