alansmithdc

Thanks for the insights. Your pre torquing to the left at address is counter to Mike Maves pretorquing to the right with the right foot at setup. He calls it "The Move." Is he incorrect?

IMO Hogan shows us the secret at time 0:26 in the following video

oops. Wrong video.

I wonder if a missing Hogan video was found in which Hogan himself discussed the secret to the golf swing, how much that tape would fetch on ebay.

I thought the article was pretty complicated. Hogan said it best. "Too try to control the clubface through the ball is folly" All of that is taken care of at address and during the waggle.

Mcgolf. Congratulations. You are on track to discover what Hogan discovered about the golf swing. Keep it up.

He didn't directly mention it in Five Lessons. He was quoted as saying, "I have a secret, it is easy to see if I tell you where to look" He also said, "The Secret is in the Dirt" It is very easy to determine if you are employing the secret. If, when you swing, you are not reversing every natural tendency and doing the opposite of what you are inclined to do, then you more than likely are not using Hogan's secret. Actually, if you make a careful study of Five Lessons, he shows you the secret.

He is a professional golfer who is well schooled in club design. He was in a foursome with Lee Jensen and Tony Romo. Neither could hit Hogan's club. The pro was able too. He knows Hogan's secret and is able to get the club on the backswing and downswing planes Hogan talked about in Five Lessons. The clubs need to be that flat in order to utilize Hogan's secret. I have been told Hogan's secret. The problem is that when I share it, no one understands it. So, I'm relegated to talking about with it with just a few people who understand it. I think the secret is hard for most people to capitalize on because it requires the golfer, as Hogan said, to "“Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing.” People have a very hard time reversing their instincts, which is why I think people have not discovered Hogan's secret or don't use Hogan's secret. (The cupping of the left wrist at the top of the swing, mentioned in the Life magazine article, is only an effect of using the secret.) That is why Hogan said he could look at a person's position at the top and know right away if they were going to use his secret.

Interesting observation. I'll have to try interlock with the driver. I know someone else said Hogan's irons were 6 degrees flat. He supposedly visited Shady Oaks. I know a guy who hit Hogan's actual clubs. I'll try to find out. I doubt that he was paying attention to the lie angle, but who knows. I checked with the guy who actually hit Hogan's personal clubs at Shady Oaks, taken right out of the display case. He said they were 6 degrees flat.

on page 89 of Five Lessons, note the flat lie angle of the club. Since Hogan's swing was completely different than anyone elses, his clubs were different to compensate for his swing. Most clubs are designed to work with a modern day swing, more upright. These upright clubs will not work with a Hogan swing. I've gone to golf shops. The flatest lie I could find was 2 Degrees flat. I suspect that Hogan's clubs are more in the 5-6 degree flat range. The investment cast clubs are hard to bend. If you have them bend a forged iron, it will always come with the caveat that they cannot guarentee against breakage. I solved the problem by purchasing Hogan Round Soles on ebay. Then had the clubfitter bend them flatter. If they broke, then I wasn't out a lot of money. Luckily they didnt. If you don't have flat lie angles, you will not be able to make consistent contact on the ball.

Another point to consider. As far as I can tell, no one swung at a golf ball like Hogan, and no one has since. Therefore, Hogan's teachings are going to be completely different than anyone else. There is no such thing as blended teaching styles. It's either Hogan or it's everyone else. Most teachings today are directed to get golfers to swing like modern day PGA pros. Hogan's swing was nothing like modern day PGA pro's. If you decide to swing like Hogan, then you have to closely=closely follow all of his instructions, especially the drawings. There are huge differences between Hogan's teachings and modern day teachings. For example, on the page showing a down the line view, with the sheet of glass and the shading of the tracks the back swing of the club. When Hogan's hands are hip high, the golf club is not parallel to the target line, the toe of the club is not pointed to the sky, the thumbs are not pointed to the sky, a laser beam traveling out the head of the club (like a lot of those laser teaching aides) does not point along the target line. His arm is parallel to the plane, and not only that, it is not touching the plane, it is below the plane. On the page showing the waggle, and takeaway, from the front view, notice that at the end of the takeaway, the right forearm is in line with the right wrist. A lot of teaching methods have the right wrist in a more dorsiflexed position so the right wrist is cupped. You may ask, "So what's the big deal"? The answer is "Plenty". The first few inches, the first few feet that the club travels on the back swing determines the scope of the remainder of the swing. The problem with trying to swing like Hogan, is that your swing will look like no one else. Since everyone else is trying to swing like modern day PGA pros, a problem occurs. My conflict is that I play with very well intentioned, well meaning, great golfers. The problem is that the advice they give is not directed towards swinging like Hogan. It is aimed towards swinging like the modern day principles, which are far removed from the way Hogan swung. It is hard. Because as you are learning, there are going to be a lot of mishits. It is easy to become discouraged. Then a really good golfer comes along and says, "All you have to do is ..." The next thing, you are off the Hogan train, and getting lost in a lot of other people's theories. I think it is noble to swing like the world's greatest striker of a golf ball. It has been hard to ignore others advice, especially when you see them killing the ball. But, I have stuck to my guns. As such I have experienced the great shots that Hogan talked about. I've hit the Hogan fade, I've hit the sculled wedge shot that spins with maximum backspin and stops on a dime. There have also been a lot of mishits. But I haven't abandoned the ship. Really study Five Lessons with a fine tooth comb. Don't listen to anybody else. Let Hogan be the teacher, and you be his student.

Hogan said to spend a week on the grip, a week on the stance, a week on the backswing and a week on the downswing. I think he said it would take the average golfer 6 months to start breaking 80, however

Remember. Hogan said that the harder he hit the ball, the straighter the ball traveled. Don't be a afraid to smash the heck out of that white little thing.

I have the same feelings of folding all of the excess right palm over. The overlap feels a lot different than the interlocking grip. I changed from interlocking grip to overlap grip because the world's greatest striker of a golf ball told me too. So I adapted. After you use it for a while, you will get used to it. Then your old interlocking grip will feel awkward.

I think every Hogan devotee over that past 60 years had faced the same dilemma. I am not a pro, but I have carefully read Five Lessons a bunch of times, so I'll just share what I see from the book to answer some of your questions. 1. You have to put your body in what ever position it needs to get too so you can have the imaginary plane of glass resting on your shoulders. The glass angle is going to vary on your club selection. So for a driver it will feel more upright. For a chip with a lob wedge, you will feel more bent over. 2-3. I could never figure out the life line thing. I would do exactly what Hogan shows. Palm facing target, fingers extended, put the club below the palm, as he shows in the diagram. Hold with the two middle fingers. The folding the palm of the right hand over, because there is a lot to fold over, has always been confusing. So I bought a Mark OMeara golf grip, which is supposedly based upon Hogans grip. Then I turn the book upside down and try to figure out if my grip looks like Hogan's grip as he sees it. 4. Remember, in the overlap grip he is specific. It locks inbetween the middle and index finger. Also notice that he darkens the right pinky, meaning he is emphasizing that part of the grip. 5. The answer to this question is what is referred to as the Mystique of the Hogan swing. People, since the books publication have benn trying to figure this one out. The person who can figure out your question number 5, will become an instant millionaire and the most sought after golf instructor in the world.

Having been in the other branch of service, I tend to play Navy golf, pitch and roll. I pitch the ball over there, but it rolls over there. I can visualize the backswing plane. The other thing I am working on comes from the Forward of Five Lessons, (hardbacked edition), where Hogan talked about rolling his arms like a baseball bat. I'm really keying on that move back and thru. As a result, I'm hitting hooks. Next time, I need to try Hogan's suggestion of cupping the left wrist at the top, and see if that takes care of the hooks.

Chillmoon: You may be right. Hogan may have just been inflating his ego. He may have said he had a secret to throw some fear into his competitors. I mean, who wants to go up against Harry Potter? His statements and writings are probably a mixed bag of truth and deception. At least that was my father's impression when he caddied for pro's of that era at Lake Merced in San Fran. My dad thought they were always trying to mislead the other player as too what they were doing with their swings. Today's PGA seems a little more friendly, and that they don't mind helping each other out.

Chillmoon, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that looking at the drawings in Five Lessons, so the reader sees the swing from Hogan's perspectve, is not "ridiculous". Why wouldn't I want to see the swing as Hogan saw it? Much like playing Where's Waldo. A little mental trick is too turn the Waldo scene upside down. Often you can find Waldo faster than someone who is reading it from the "Normal" perspective. As for their being no magic, hidden secret, your statement is in direct conflict with Ben Hogan's own words: "The secret is in the dirt" and "The secret is easy if I tell you where to look". I agree that golf scores have not come down, except in my own case. Following the standard approach to Hogan's lessons, (the strategy that you champion) I struggled for years. Since making a careful study of Hogan's teachings; upside down, inside out, in a mirror standing on my head, anyway I could gleen different perspectives, has my swing improved and my score lowered. Doing so has revealed a lot too me. All these revelations have come from a careful interpretation of Hogan's writings. In fact, I have enough insights to write my own Hogan's swing revealed book. I'll give away one charm, to prove my point. Do you want to learn how to get into the perfect backswing position that Hogan worked tirelessly in his motel rooms between rounds to achieve? Hogan shows us how to do it. You have to be able to go from point A to point B to get there. Turn to page 75 in Five Lessons. Look at the bottom drawing. Do exactly as Hogan is doing in the far right drawing, with his left hand on top of the club, showing the angle of the club. Now, to get to point TOP (top of backswing), remove the left hand from the club and put it where the right hand is in the drawing, place a club there, take the Hogan grip, and there you have the perfect top of the backswing position. In my humble opinion, if your pal Iacas wants his golf handicap to stay right where it is, then he should continue to keep you as his golfing advisor.

Hi Arsenal: There is soo much written into those pages. Everytime, I pick up something more. I've been reading it for over 20 years. Yesterday I picked up another thing Hogan was doing. The problem with my type of analysis is that it is hard to tell if it is an effect or something he is purposly trying to accomplish. But I noticed on the youtube video that during the backswing, Hogan's right elbow goes away from his body then as his arms are parallel to the ground, the right elbow sucks back into his side. So I'm starting the backswing, arms together, (except for doing the rotate the outer elbow so it points to parallel to the target like Hogan does on his backswing), then start to suck the right elbow in. The downswing thought I'm trying to work on is too start the downswing, by compressing the 12th right rib to the top of the right illiac crest, while pushing off with the right instep of the right foot, like Hogan describes in Power Golf. I figure if enough of us try to mimic his swing, someone will fall upon something that actually works. If every Hogan fan posts the results of their experiments, we might get this golf swing thing licked.

Big Mikey; I followed your advice. I could not tell if I was at the correct top of the backswing position. But, I never hit the ball so well. Without any warm up, or practice balls, Played 6 holes before it got too dark. Hit 4 greens in regulation, two putted each green. Every shot was straight. Missed the 6th green, a 157 par 3 by 1 foot. No three putts. My most amazing 6 holes in 25 years of golf. It was almost too easy. The following morning video taped my swing. As far as I can tell, I'm making Hogan motions. Thanks Big Mikey for the tip.

Im anxious to give it a try.

How are you making sure your arms are touching the top of the imaginary plane? It sounds like an awesome goal to achieve.

Thanks for the great feedback.. I'm still a little confused. It sounds like the Tempo trainer is messed up. Is the microtrainer better, or should I stick with finding my own rythum? Alan

To be honest with you, it has been an on going study. It seems everytime I read the book or look at the drawings, I seem to pick something else out. A study technique I do is turn the book upside down, and view the drawings from Hogan's perspective. Try it. You will get a whole new look on the swing. I remember thinking how far over to the right the right hand placement is compared to looking at the drawing from a normal perspective. Another hidden gem, is that the hands, and handle of the club at impact are a lot more further ahead than you think. It looks, when you look at the impact drawing from normal that the hands are not too far ahead. But in reality, the hands cant' get too far foward. There is a great site, I can't find it. It is from the same guys that do the stick figure drawings on Hogan on youtube. Get to their site from the youtube video. Then click under articles, more impact. You will see how far forward the hands are between address and impact. Great site. I'm thinking of ordering their software. Right now I'm studying the shading of the swing. Remember he said he shades areas to emphasize. It looks like he emphazises the right elbow pressure on the waggle, and downswing. I'm beginning to think he keeps the right elbow tucked in to deliver a lot more power to the ball. I know I've read that before from other readers, but with the drawings, it makes a little more sense Alan

I agree with you big Mikey. I too wish he had written a short game book. Now we just have to watch youtube videos of his short game. However, he did drop us a clue in Five Lessons. He said the hands perform the same in a short swing as they do in a full swing, chip, pitch, where the ball is contacted on the downswing. Hogan also said that the right thumb and forefinger are good for finesse shots. I don't know if he counted fading or drawing the ball to be a finesse shot. I think I picked up another secret of Hogan's. It is referred too as Ringing the Bell from the top of the swing. Or think, "Pull the shaft out of the clubhead from the top." Same motions. I read somewhere that Hogan took John Schlee's club when Schlee was at the top of the swing, and pulled the club down to the ground, while still at the top of the swing. Hogan remarked, "That is what it feels like" So, that is what I'm working on, along with getting the club on angle on the downswing.