lonewolf

What laws were thrown out to release a public record (Grand Jury Report)?

I read your posts. Still hope you are never ina position where you are entrusted with children as you simply don't get it. --Boy in shower with 55+ year old man is reported to you. Teh words "fondling" and horseplay" are used and yet you just do the bare minimum and seem to think that is OK. It isn't OK as demonstrated by the BOT of PSU. You seem to think that being a business owner has anything to do with it. It doesn't. 1.) Regarding McQuery; agree. BUT it does not diminish Paterno being complicit and hsi inactions,,,,and yes his guilt (ethically). Also, regarding McQuery,,ever think he has 'whistle blower' status and may have leverage. You know how whislte blowers are treated 'as a business owner' don't you? 2.) Yeah, We get it. You seem to think org charts and positions within an organizaation dictates one's ethical responsiblility. You seem to think that jsut because McQueary was a slacker that Paterno could be too. You seem to think that it's OK for Paterno to enjoy being the Big Man on Campus;;EXCEPT when it comes to haveing some honor, integruty, courage, RESPONSIBILITY. All hollow words that he once espoused. Like I said, hope you are never in a position where you are entrusted with children. Casue after all; the org chart matters more than innocent children, right? 3.) Yep. minimal. Minimal is what he did and he is no longer in a position to just to the minimal; and rightfully so. 4.) AD adn VP of finance are being criminally charged. Problem is; in your analogy you insist on defending the corp. director who told of cild in shower with fondling and decided to do the bare minimum. Oh nad by the way this corp. director carries a lot of weight and holds a lot of power. ie Big Man on Campus (Paterno) 5.) Um, yes you can fire that person. PSU fired Paterno and people have been fired fo rmuch less. For some reason you seem to think Paterno eing canned as all due to media. You can't seem to grasp that he was part of the cover-up. you apparently didn't read his statements before lawyers told him to shut up. You don't get it. Paterno could have prevented more abuse. He is likely OK legally,,,but got canned and should have.

It's not moot. It's gonna get worse. It's too bad you don't see his culpability here. Put it this way.....I hope yo uare never in a position where children's well being is at stake...as from what you have posted you don't know how to make a basic right decision and seem to think the venue of molestation determines how it is dealt with. You alos seem to think the bare minimum is enough and being too busy is an excuse when it comes to molestaion of a 10 yr. old.

WE already know that answer. Spanier, Curley, Paterno and McQuery. Thare are probably more,,,but that is a start.

Newtgolf: 1.I agree, the media didn't create the scandal, they sensationalized it. 2.Yes I did, and McQueary was not clear to Paterno what he saw, but was troubled by it enough that he decided to report it to Paterno THE NEXT DAY. 3.PSU is a business, there are business procedures and policies. If McQueary called the police when he saw them in the lockerroom he'd been justified but as a manager or business owner I'm not calling the police on any employees based on an unsubstantiated accusation from a subordinate who didn't think it was important enough to act on until the next day. 4.Joe didn't know it was rape and he did what he was legally required to, he raised the issue to his management who had both a legal and moral right to pursue it with the police. Should Paterno have done more, maybe, but it's more gray than black and white given he didn't witness it himself, McQueary did nothing when he witnessed it and waited over 24 hours to even mention it, not to mention Sandusky was a highly respected member of his coaching team. 5.BOT canned him because they want the media to go let up and it was obvious they wouldn't until Paterno was canned. 6.You're changing facts to make your argument, stick to the facts, it was not Paterno's kid and Paterno didn't witness the act. The fact is Paterno did what he was legally required to do after McQueary reported the incident to him. Why aren't you going after McQueary who didn't have the balls to stop the rape in the shower and beat Sandusky's ass? Why aren't you and the media begging for his head on a platter? Reason is McQueary is a no one and no one is going to read the newspaper about him getting fired. 7.Once again, the incident was reported to Paterno, he didn't see it. If Paterno saw Sandusky rape a boy and did nothing like McQueary did he'd be as guilty as you want to make him. You don't call the police on someone based on 2nd hand information when there are procedures set in place to handle it. Had he called the police and turned out it was a farce that McQueary had made up, Paterno would be sued. PSU is a business, when you work for a business you act in accordance with established procedures, even if they don't seem to be the moral thing to do. 8.Adults, maybe. As I've said numerous times, there are plenty of guilty parties here, and Paterno is only one, yet he was the one the media wanted on a platter and they gave the media what they wanted. Why isn't anyone wondering why the police and DA didn't continue their investigation? Why wasn't Sandusky put in jail? Why was his only punishment to promise not to shower with young boys anymore? Why was he allowed to have these kids in his home after the incident? Why did he and his wife provide foster care to young boys? Why was he allowed to run the kids program after the accusation? Why was he allowed to work at a H.S. around these boys? Where is the DA that went missing? I guess it's all Paterno's fault too. You all want to blame Paterno but you are missing the point that many people failed these kids and to date based on the information we have, Paterno did nothing legally wrong. All of the attention is on Paterno because he's the biggest name to sell newspapers while the real criminals, scumbags and cowards are barely getting any media ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.) What do you expect the media to do? Send out a few blurbs....talk about it in passing? This notion that the media is in anyway to blame for Paterno's and or PSU's inaction is sophistry. 2.) Yep. And Paterno did the bare minimum. The bare minimum after hearing of a grown man being in a shower with a 10 yr. old where he was "fondling" "horseplay" "touching". Like you said, THE MAN on campus was 'too busy' being THE MAN and did the bare minimum. Well, reason says when you hear of a grown man in ta shower with a 10 yr. old and "fondling" "horseplay" "touching" the time for the bare minimum is over. For that inaction THE MAN on campus is no longer. Additionally, for that inaction one could argue that Sandusky was allowed to keep on molesting. 3.) PSU is a business. Yeah, so what? That in no way lessens the responisbility of adults to stop grown men in a shower with a 10yr. old "fondling" "horseplay" "touching". You telling us that if a subordinate of yours comes in to tell you a colleague was in a shower with a 10 yr. old "fondling" "horseplay" "touching" that you would just kick it up to your boss and let it ride? If so, then you are part of the problem. The venue of "fondling" "horseplay" "touching". is completely irrelevant. Does it matter to that 10 yr. old if he is in a business or not while getting "fondling" "horseplay" "touching". ? 4.) Yep, he did the bare minimum. And he and those that did the bare minimum are no longer at PSU,,,,thankfully. And no,,Sandusky had already retired under murky circumstances.... "highly respected" at that time he was far from. 5.) BOT canned him because he was in a position of power with a lot of responsibility and only did the bare minimum. 6.) Not changing facts. Asking a reasonable question. It's telling you didnt answer. 7.) You keep harping on PSU being a business. GEt this: when it comes to grown men "fondling" "horseplay" "touching" 10 year olds; being a business is completely irrelevant. 8.) Paterno was talked aout most bcasue of who he was. "the face of the program". Too bad for him. With power comes responsibility. RE the investigation...it IS continuing. Notice Paterno has hired a criminal defense attorney. RE Sandusky being free....good question. Why in the world was he still on campus as late as last week? More fuel to the PSU irresponsibility. BTW, I beleive much more will come, and it won't be good news. As to your Paterno fault...YES...he sure as hell should feel some guilt about doiong the bare minimum. He had the ability, the opportunity adn the power to DO something....and we all know what he did do....the bare minimum. Paterno's words are very telling. 'he will do everything in his power to help the University'....yep,,,that is what he did...meanwhile Sandusky continued to prowl. I want to blame Paterno AND Sandusky, AND the AD AND Mcquery AND the VP AND whover else was told about Sandusky molesting kids and doing hte bare minimum. Your infatuation with who gets media coverage does not minimize Paterno's failings. Your infatuation with Paterno doing what he was legally required to do does not either.

NewtGolf "It's a moot point now since the media got their pound of flesh and Paterno was fired but... You're making a number of assumptions that may or may not have happened at PSU. It isn't clear exactly what McQueary said to Paterno - he definitely didn't say he saw a 10 year old being raped by Sandusky, it was more along the lines of the guy was "horseplaying" with the kid in the showers. Paterno reported it as he was supposed to, and I don't recall anyone claiming they brought additional incidents to Paterno's attention so why would Paterno call the police if his management said it was being investigated? How many times did Michael Jackson sleep in a bed with young boys and no one on his staff called the police? I don't recall a media lynch mob at his house looking to have the house staff fired and arrested or refusing to report Jackson to the police. This was a witch hunt to bring down PSU and Paterno by the media and PSU knew it wouldn't stop until they fired Paterno so they caved to the media demands. " ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1.) This isn't the media's fault. They are reporting on the scandal...not creating it. The thought that the media is after Joe PA is cr*p. 2.) I am not assuming anything. I read the grand jury report and Paterno's comments. Did you? 3.) There was a lot more than "horseplay"...did you see the word "fondling". What else do you need to know other than grown man in a shower with a 10 yr. old? 4.) Rape is what occured. Read the grand jury report. Sure, maybe McQuery didnt say the word "rape", but this isnt a time for semantics. Again; naked grown man in a shower with a 10 year old boy was reported. 5.) Yep. Paterno told his boss and then let it ride. Nice job...doing the miniumum required. Obviously, it wasn't good enough as the BOT canned him on a unanimous vote. As you said...maybe he was "too busy". 6.) To answer your question Paterno should have called police because a 10 yr. old boy was being "fondled" in a shower by a 55-60 yera old man. Wyy is that so hard to comprehend? You think Paterno's inaction would have been the same if it was his blood (grandson, nephew, etc?) me either. 7.) YOu must not have read newpapers / wathced the news / listened to late night TV during hte MJ scandal. Fro argument's sake...let's say none of that happened at Jackson's house. So WHAT!? Does that somehow remove Paterno's responisbility to do something when he hears a 10 yr. old is being fondled by a 55-60 yr. old on a campus where he is THE MAN? 8.) I'm glad some adults with perspective tok over at PSU. --Two final questions: Why do you think Paterno told Sandusky he was not going to be the HC at PSU and why do you think Sandusky suddenly retired at a relatively young age? Why do you think Sandusky was told to quit bringing underage kids to campus?

Horse hockey. Dude aint too busy to follwow up on a child being raped. Let's just change the players here: --NEwtgolf is the head man in charge at the widget factory. John Doe comes to him and says 'hey, I just saw one of our 60 yr. old colleagues naked in teh shower fondling, etc a 10 yr. old boy. --Newtgolf goes to his boss adn his boss says. We'll take care of it. Meanwhile, the molesting colleague continues to hang out at the widget factory with otehr young boys and 9+ years go by and nothing happens. --You telling me you too busy to call the police?

Originally Posted by rustyredcab "Tell that to the boys who were sodomized, fondled, orally raped, and otherwise assaulted since 2002." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shades9323 How is that Paterno's fault? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You ask this AFTER reading the Grand Jury Report? Geesh! Cliff's notes version: --A graduate asst. witnesses a 60 yr old man engaged in sex with a 10 year old boy in a PSU shower --Same grown man (grad asst.) runs to tell his daddy adn then tell Paterno --Paterno tells his boss (he's legally covered now) --then Paterno does NOTHING for 9+ years as more young boys are molested by one of his colleagues --meanwhile PSU tells the molester 'don't bring anymore underage kids to school' What in the world does that tell you? --meanwhile molester hangs out on campus and continues his activity with a charity for young people,,,what does Paterno do? Nothing. Yeah,,,he didn't witness it, his bosses didnt do anything to stop it...but neither did Paterno. Paterno is (was)the man on that campus adn you can be sure he enjoys that status, But with status and power come responsibility and he shirked it. With his "success with honeor" mantra" don't you think he could have had a little more "honor"? Did you read his statement? 'the BOT should not waste one more minute on my status'....'I will do everything possible for this University'...blah blah blah. That IS the problem in his own words. He doesnt seem to think he is beholden to the BOT and his stance on doing everything for the University is the same attitude that allowed a molester to hang around young people for 9+ years AFTER Paterno knew about it. Ask yourself this question: --Garduate assst. comes to Paterno and tells him I saw Sandusky molesting a 10 yr. old boy in the shower,,,and oh, by the way it was your nephew, grandson, etc. you think Paterno's silence would have been the same? Me neither.

Did you Read the Grand Jury report?

You are correct. You are being too sensitive.

Best post I've read here. Now the fun / harder part comes. Getting from a 16 to a single digit. I'm pulling for you. A lot to be said for not letting ego dictate your golf game. Two items that help me from fairway bunkers if I may: 1.) find one to three clubs you are comfy with out of fairway bunkers depending on lips-distances personally, I'm very comfy with a 140yd. 8 iron; comfy with a 160 yd. 6iron and reasonaly comfy with 170yd 5 iron---all are 10 yds. shorter then normal distances 2.) quiet your lower half - 3/4 quarter swing Think I'll go drop a few hundred on a new driver now. Interested in buying a 9.5 degree Clev. Launcher (est. 2002)? Best of luck

Life doesn't happen in slo-mo.

Agreed on the differences between HOW the scores are turned in and how the possibility of vanity handicaps can happen in the US. Regarding your premise of US couses being easier than Europes courses (or Europe's courses being in worse condition than US's)......let's just say that your "experience" is biased and/or limited. Regarding the pure calculation,,,I beleive there is little difference.

Cliff's notes version. Best 10 scores out of 20 are taken with a descending scale if the number of rounds you play is less. Your scores are calculated as follows: Score (minus) course rating X (multiplied by) 113 / (divided by) slope. Does Scotland have course ratings and/or slopes?

Kiawah, Wild Dunes, Seabrook, Rivertowne, Dunes West, Charleston National, Snee Farm , Stono Ferry, Crowfiled, Coosaw Creek, Shadowmoss. All in relative order of price.

Should have waited til I saw it before commenting. Who knows what Paddy or his fellow competitors saw. But, it was more than an oscillation. However, think we may be in store for some longer rounds with more (just in case) rulings.

I'm with Dave H. on this. After rules official answer is just leave it and play on. Then FA on the couch notices the 1.5 dimple move and calls in. Then what? "Rules official told me to play on" say Paddy. "Too bad" says another rulles official, "some FA phoned in and we noticed a1.5 dimple move that wasn't an oscillation." Rules are rules, yes. Call in a rules official, yes. But, we really going to have players calling in rules officials for marking balls when it oscillates (um, I mean) moves 1.5 dimples? What's goign to happen at teh British Open when it's windy as he11? They better start trainng thousands of rules officials and get ready for 6hr. rounds.

Agreed on the shot about the lady at the range. Otherwise, if he doesn't want to be judged....well, then don't go on TV. If pointing out that the story being told is that he had a girlfriend paying for everything while he played golf then call me a hater. If pointing out that he doesn't seem interested in getting a job then call me a hater. If pointing out that the protrayal of him on TV has huge unanswered questions then call me a hater. You really telling us not to judge then state you would like to be there if we fall on hard times? Spare me. For the dude in the story....it's quite simple. Get a J O B adn quit whining about everyting done to you adn do for yourself.

That is bad news if true. I'll buy another pack or two this weekend.

I'm biased as I belong to Stono. Both are nice. Stono has great views/great greens/better price. Rivertowne has good greens/longer-more challenging overall course and higher price. Can't go wrong with either one. Maybe better to get a non-biased opinion.

Depends. Where are you staying? If you are East Cooper (Mt. Pleasant area) then Rivertowne is much closer. If you are West Ashley then Stono Ferry is much closer. Staying downtown is a toss-up. Rivertowne is a little longer and a little more expensive. Stono Ferry's greens are fantastic right now, IMO. I happen to play there a lot. They overseeded Stono last week and likely did at Rivertowne. Overseeding usually means cartpath only for a few days following.....ask them at Rivertowne.

Try Precept Laddies.

your sarcasm is ususaly funny. Your condescension is not. Sometimes it may be better for you to just ignore threads instaed of chiming in.

Good post. What's wrong with offering a "round" for Jr's / beginners in the morning from hole 13 thru hole 18? or hole 4 thru hole 9?

1) It makes no sense that recreational golfers (especially beginners) play by the same rules that pros and elite amateurs play by. Simplify rules for everyday recreational play. Would you ski off a double black diamond hill after your first ski lesson? Agree to an extent to at least speed up play. BUT, this contradicts point number 9. CAn't have it both ways. I do like the idea of non-league / non-handicap players who only ocassionally play be encouraged to speed up play by a few simple 'local rules suggestions' like: Play OB and lateral and water hazzards as the same; provide more drop areas over hazzards; 3-putt rule maximum on greens; etc. 2) Players choose which tees they play from. They should also be able to choose the size of the hole they play to. Courses should have a regulation hole and a 10-inch hole on every green. This would have a major impact on pace of play and enjoyment. I believe players already choose which tees. Size of the hole? Meaning two holes cut per green? Not buying that speeds up play. Additionally, believe it would wear out greens faster. Even with the suggestions from #1, we need not forget that golf is a hard game. Charlie used an anlogy on #1....so will I. Tennis players don't use a larger ball or wider courts? why should golfers have larger holes? That suggestion is sill imo. 3) Get the pros out from behind the counters. Golf can be intimidating and confusing. Pros should meet, greet, and make golfers feel welcome. Let the grumpy rangers collect the cash. Quick tips on the range and advice on how to play the course should be the priority for pros. Who knows? This might even bring back pro shop customer loyalty and give those grumpy rangers more cash to collect. Golf pros don't need to be general managers. They need to be golf pros. Deal with the golfers, not the computers. ding Ding Ding. Could not agree more. The more people oritented/people friendly the pros and assistatnt pros are the better. Focus a little less on selling lesson time and a little more on gettting players interested in golf. Not saying give away the farm on lesson time, but more time going over basics and less time printing receipts behind the counter would go a long way imo. The aloofness of golf could be easily stripped away and replaced with people oriented fun and exercise. 4) Find ways to let seniors and juniors play 3-, 6-, and 12-hole loops walking. If regular play starts at 8 a.m., let juniors and seniors tee off the 12th or 16th tee at 8:30. Agreed. Especially for juniors. What would be wrong with letting a 35 yr. old father / 8 yr. old son tee off on number 12 for 1/3 the greens fees? 5) Widen fairways and lower rough cuts. Nobody wants to have an Easter egg hunt on every hole. And more importantly, nobody wants to stand on a tee watching the group in front of them have an Easter egg hunt. Depends on the course imo. not a cookie-cutter answer. 6) Educate golfers on the economic reality of high green speeds. Golfers need to appreciate healthy turf more than greens that roll 14 on the stimpmeter. Not only does this take pressure off the golf course owner but it also helps with pace of play. Tough one. I like fast greens and jusdge a course by the ahspe/speed of greens. I'm a bad person to judge this suggestion. 7) Learn from bowling. Bowling was withering on the vine in the 1970s and early 1980s. People couldn't figure out how to keep score and gutter balls just weren't that much fun. Automatic scoring and retractable bumpers helped revitalize the sport. Get the analogy,,,but there is no real suggestion here. 8) Push the physical activity and socialization button with seniors. Movement and activity helps fight heart disease and diabetes. Socialization helps depression and overall mental health. Nothing brings these factors together better than golf. Especially on a golf course with less rough and a 10-inch hole. Find creative ways to get seniors on the golf course. Stop with the 10 inch hole already. Many courses I am familiar with ALREADY cater to the senior crowd to the detriment of the junior players. 9) Base handicaps on scores shot in competition and on designated medal play days. Illegitimate handicaps discourage many golfers from competing. The current system doesn't provide incentive for many golfers to take pride in their handicap. Sounds good, BUT how many people actually play enough designated medal rounds to get a valid handicap. What shold be encouraged is teh integrity of the game. Getting back to suggestion #1. If you are an "everyday recreational" golfer then getting a handicap does not matter. If you are someone who wants to play in tournaments/leagues then they do matter and so do the rules of golf. We need to acknowledge two different types of golfers, imo. 10) Have golf courses prepped and ready for play at first light on weekends. This gives parents the opportunity to get in some golf and still have time to spend with the family. Recreational time can't compete with family time in this day and age. And rightfully so. Aren't most courses already doing this?