NutmegGolfer

I hope this link that I'm posting helps you as much as it helped me. I didn't know what was going on until a pro walked up to me at a driving range one day and told me that he was tired of seeing me getting so "stuck" in my backswing. He was right, and after my driving range session, I went back and started investigating this issue. After seeing this clip I realized I was getting stuck right from the get go !!! My takeaway was the culprit ! Now I envision the wrecking ball and sense that I feel the weight of the club being picked up by the inner part of my left arm that is opposite my left elbow (where you would have blood drawn, it's actually called the "Antecubital space") I also practice half swings while noticing where my left forearm is at that point. It will be noticeably closer to the target line than before. I sincerely hope this helps, Watch the video a few times and let it sink in! Nutmeg (the former "get stuck" King)

gspjeb, Your last comment really has me chuckling, because I think it's dead on target for most of us. Do we all have that subconscious urge to go to the driving ranges that slope downwards out into the distance? I think Bob Jones put it best when he said that "...when a yard becomes thirty-six inches of level ground, three hundred of them go a long way." ("Bobby Jones on Golf"-Chap.8-Driving for Distance) Let's not forget about C.O.R. (Coefficient of Restitution) The measure of the efficiency in the transfer of energy in a collision. For an interesting discussion/explanation of C.O.R. , see the following link: http://www.golfclub-technology.com/coefficient-of-restitution.html The persimmon clubs which were used for decades before the Titanium shells were rolled out, had C.O.R.'s of about .78, or about 78 percent efficiency . When the first metal drivers came out (which, by the way, did not differ much in volume from the persimmon drivers of the day) I doubt that the C.O.R. changed much. (I did a quick search and did not find any figures.) That's because the first metal drivers did not "give" like the current Titanium shells do. However, the new "modern" hollow Titanium heads have C.O.R.'s of about .83 , or about 83 percent efficiency. (The USGA put their foot down at .822 with a tolerance of .008) Assuming the club hits the ball on a very small area in just the right spot with a swing speed of 100mph, this is going to translate to 4.2 yards for every increase in C.O.R. So, from .78 to .83 is a factor of 5 multiplied by 4.2 yards = 21 yards. That's 21 yards increase in the drive given a swing speed of 100mph. When the swing speed increases the increase in yards per unit of C.O.R. will also increase. (Read the above link) Now, why does the new "modern" driver have a C.O.R. of close to or about .83? Because the thin wall of Titanium (or other exotic material) "gives" a bit when the collision with the ball happens. This results in an increase in the transfer of energy to the ball. Take a look at the picture that they have at the top of the article in the link above. It shows you what the new clubs are doing. The picture is obviously exaggerated for the purpose of demonstration, but the point is made... We basically have a Trampoline or Tennis Racket effect incorporated into the new drivers. Add this to the lighter and longer exotic shaft materials of today, along with a ball that is "hotter" (so correctly pointed out by saevel25, and probably itself accounting for 15-20 yards) and the fact that it is easy to at least hit the ball when you are tossing a 460cc shell of Titanium at it, and there we have a pretty good explanation as to why the 20 handicapper can achieve some ridiculous distances. "In a time of Universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell Included is a picture from Wikipedia comparing the "new" driver? to the persimmon driver that was used for decades. At what point do we draw the line between a "sport called golf" , and a "feel good leisure time activity" that anyone can perform and keeps everyone happy?

Yes, technology has left its mark on all sports. But baseball gloves at 3x-4x original size... ??? My hand fits a large cadet golf glove. It measures 7 1/4 from bottom of palm to tip of middle finger and 4 1/2 across palm. Just doubling that makes a baseball glove that would be 14 1/2 inches tall and 9 inches wide .... To be very honest with you... I haven't seen a baseball glove that big on anyone yet ! I noticed that you carefully dodged the professional baseball bat. If you look up Ty Cobb's baseball bat on the web, you'll notice that it isn't all that much different from the bats the pro and semi-pro players use today. The volume of the bat definitely hasn't increased by over 100% like the volume of the driver that the golf pro's now use and the material is still wood. I don't play golf with old clubs , my persimmon driver is only two years old and was purchased from a company in Kentucky that proudly manufactures them. I play golf against old man par, and I don't handicap myself by using very long shafted clubs with huge hollow shells that send the ball huge distances into the woods. As a matter of fact, when I play someone who is close to my golfing ability, I usually beat them. My driver does not handicap me at all.

Well, first of all, congratulations on being privileged or lucky enough to live by and play on such distinguished new courses that have had the honor of hosting such great events as Skins Games. That being said... do you really think my post was meant for you? I said my bet was most of us are probably playing courses that were built by 1960 or so. (I really should have said 1990) The newer courses you are playing on probably do have longer layouts that accommodate the longer driver shafts of today. Play whatever driver you want. Where in my post did I ever say you couldn't? I was merely trying to point out the fact that the huge distances that are being obtained today are due mainly to the increased shaft lengths. (and their material) The 400-460cc hollow bubble of Titanium negates the extra skill that would have been needed to contact the ball with added shaft length. It negates the trade-off that was once required to achieve more distance. That is what this thread was all about. Why are amateurs achieving some insanely far distances? I'm merely trying to get to the truth of the matter, nothing more, nothing less. I'm not trying to offend anyone. Like I said in my post, I knew that this was a very sensitive area... If you read my post carefully you will see that I said: " I believe it's not really in the spirit of the game, especially for the serious amateur or professional . That's my personal opinion. Am I allowed to have a personal opinion? The thread and discussion are about the distances obtained by average golfers with their Drivers . But now you want to go and discuss irons too? My reply, and opinion (if I am allowed that) is that the innovations in shaft material and head design on irons have not affected the game anywhere near as much as the "innovations" in Driver design. (Of course, the size of the irons today have not doubled, have they?) Interesting fact that you may not know... The irons that "most" of us have today play one club different than those in the past. Because the manufacturers know that "distance" sells, So the, let's say... 5 iron that you have is really a 4 iron from the past that has a number 5 stamped on the bottom. Look it up on the web. The same degree of loft is now on a differently numbered iron than one from a few years back. How's that for advancing an iron? Tristan, I'm only trying to get people to see the truth behind the new modern drivers, that's all. It is my opinion that they are "Have your cake and eat it too clubs." You get the 3 or 4 inch increase in shaft length without the added skill needed to hit the ball with a traditional sized club head. So, in effect, you get to sit down at the $500 blackjack table without having to lay down a $500 bet. You get the increased jackpot chance while only having to lay down a $50 bet. IMHO (No, I'm no a gambler, but I think the analogy fits.) Nutmeg

Well, I did say that I knew I was touching upon a sensitive area ! I only offered up the truth...nothing more, nothing less... The modern drivers have huge grapefruit sized club heads placed at the end of longer shafts that make it possible to hit the ball very long distances. I pointed out the fact that there is no longer any trade-off involved with "finding" the ball with increased shaft length when the clubhead is 400-460cc. I then stated that "I believed" it was not in the spirit of the game especially for professionals or serious amateurs. (My personal opinion) Never did I state or mean to imply that everyone who used modern drivers were cheating. I was merely trying to "draw back the curtain" and reveal the fact that the longer shafts are increasing the drive lengths, and the big bubble at the end of the longer shafts makes it possible to at least hit the ball. In summary, the only person who was "translating" into egregious misclassifications was...you Once again, I was merely trying to point out why some very average golfers are able to hit some insanely far drives today. That is what this thread is all about. Yes, you are correct when you point out that these innovations are making golf more enjoyable for the average amateur. My point is that doubling the average size of the driver club head from 190-200cc to about 400-460cc is not so much an "innovation" but more like a "transformation". My opinion is that, yes, it makes the game more enjoyable for the average players out there, but for the serious amateurs and professionals it's not in the spirit of the game. When I see the NFL receivers using gloves that effectively "double" the size of their hands, then yes, I will feel it is against the spirit of the game.

Interesting discussion, I know from the past that I'm entering a sensitive area, but I just want to give everyone out there something to think about. Did you ever measure the shaft on your driver? It's surprising to me how many golfers out there purchase new drivers without even knowing how long the shaft is. Oh, and by the way, the shaft length is measured not to where the shaft meets the clubhead but by where the shaft would come out of the bottom of the clubhead. There have been many good points mentioned above in this thread, but I'm not sure whether or not anybody has mentioned shaft material and length. Go ahead, get your driver and take a tape measure to it. My guess is that it is most probably 44 to 45 inches long. The shaft length and material is the engine of distance. (Assuming of course, a good swing has been applied.) The reason why "Joe Average" can occasionally hit the ball 250-300 yards is because he is holding a driver with a 44, 45 or possibly a 46 inch shaft ( which by the way, is made out of a very light exotic material.) And yes, for most of the Joe Averages, the good swing is very occasional. How many out there realize that Jack Nicklaus in his prime used a steel shafted persimmon driver that measured.... 42 and 3/4 inches ? ( Golf My Way -Equipment Chapter, pg 60) Search "young Jack Nicklaus" on youtube. You'll see someone who could have easily played college football in his day. This guy was seriously strong. His average drive was probably a "faded" 270 to 280. (Yes, he could hit it 300.) Jack Nicklaus or any of the other greats of the past could have increased their shaft length to 44, 45 or 46 inches if they wanted to. But they encountered two trade-offs . First , the longer shaft made it more difficult to hit a straight shot. (This still applies today) Second , the longer shaft made it more difficult to hit the sweet spot on the insert of the persimmon club face. And this, they knew, was a big key to distance. The second point is why, imho, most pros and amateurs did not go with a longer shaft, it made it more difficult to hit the standard (190cc-200cc?) clubhead square on the insert. The new (400-460cc) drivers of today make it possible to increase the shaft length and still be able to go at the ball 100% and still have a chance to hit it. Not only that, there is no insert on the face so you can basically hit it anywhere on the face and it will fly off far and...somewhere... I believe that this is not really in the spirit of the game (especially at the professional or serious amateur level.) IMHO , A huge skill component has been removed . Can you imagine a baseball bat being made out of Titanium and having its diameter doubled? Would you even watch baseball anymore??? Snore..... Check out your favorite course. My bet is that most were probably built sometime up to about 1960. Are you really playing the course fairly by using a 45 or 46 inch driver with a grapefruit sized head of hollow Titanium??? Be honest now... The new drivers are not "new technology" as much as they are new marketing and salesmanship. (Distance, distance, distance.) I personally play a 43.5 inch steel shafted persimmon driver and play the game that I want to play, not the handicap "feel good" game that the corporations want to sell me on. Nutmeg

Wow, Luu5, ... I never thought I'd wake up to a "Golf Paradigm Shift" this morning.... I've got at least 20 golf books, (let alone what I check out from the libraries) they all state the standard club face path/angle info. I see that you recognized that I was following it... No wonder the best I could do with a draw was to start it towards the target only to have it curve away to the left... Astonishing article... I feel that I've just been initiated into a secret golf society... Wow, can't wait to get to the range... Thanks Luu5!

Hey everyone, Been working very hard on my full swing the last couple of years. I'm starting to hit them extremely well from a normal or square setup. More so at the range than at the course, but... we all know about that don't we? Problem is, when I try to set up for a slight draw (stance closed by a few degrees and clubhead aimed at target) I am hitting screaming low pull hooks... Anyone have a guess as to what could be causing this. My square stance shots are high and straight. How could just a few degrees closed be causing such an ugly change? One issue I fought hard to correct in square set-up was taking the club away too far inside. Was wondering if the closed set-up aggravates this problem? Nutmeg

Seeing that we are in a thread which is discussing persimmon woods I will make the following info available. Here is an article written by John Gordon of the National Post which quotes the recently deceased president of Louisville Golf, Elmore Just. http://www.louisvillegolf.com/library_article.php?article=NzI0c3VwZXI3MjFzZWNyZXQ3Mjg%3D Here is an excerpt from an article written about the somewhat? talented golfer who goes by the name...Tiger Woods. The article appeared in Golf Digest and was titled "The Year of Living Dangerously." Most important to his longevity, Woods continues to have fun with a game he has never stopped loving. He seeks practice rounds with Bubba Watson , who entertains Woods with his freakish power and loose-jointed grace. Woods hits a bevy of persimmon-head drivers and fairway woods on the range at Isleworth, saying he loves the sound and feel and the smaller margin for error. "If I ruled golf? We'd be playing persimmon and balata," he says. Nutmeg

In the hole, You are not alone, there are more of us out here than you might expect. I dropped golf for a number of years only to come back to all the Grapefruit sized hollow shells of Titanium and decided they weren't for me and how I wanted to play the game. I purchased a "Classic Fifties" Persimmon driver from Louisville Golf. It has 11 degrees of loft and a steel shaft at 43.5 (they let you choose your shaft type and length) I've been using it as my main driver here in CT for the past two years. What to expect? Excellent results with a good swing. A poor swing, or slap at the ball will give you what you deserve...(gee, isn't that what a sport of skill should be all about?) I am positive that I've learned more about my swing using this driver than I ever would have using the drivers they have on the racks today. Let me just state this: It's not the Grapefruit sized hollow shell of Titanium that is making the new drivers hit so long. It's mostly the shaft material and length . Now, in the past adding extra inches to your shaft led to 2 trade-offs . 1) For every inch you added to shaft length you were going to have more distance but more difficulty in keeping your drives straight. 2) For every inch you added to shaft length you were going to get more distance, but only at the increased difficulty of finding the sweet spot on the insert, or finding the insert at all !!! And the great pros and amateurs of the past knew that the quality of the strike was really what mattered most. Trade-off number 1 still applies and is the reason that many of the new drivers with their (44,45,46 inch?) long shafts are hitting the ball very far but crooked. Trade-off number 2, in my opinion, has been largely erased. The added skill in striking the ball with a longer shaft is no longer necessary because the huge shell of Titanium is going to find the ball. I just don't find that to be in the spirit of the game... It's great that the new drivers are keeping a lot of people happy and in the game, but I just wish they would understand the facts above before they start berating me on my equipment choice. (especially when I'm consistently beating them) Kudos to you In the hole. Play the game and club that you want to play, not the game or club someone else wants you to play. Most of the courses I play were designed 20 to 100 years ago. You get the feeling that your coming closer to playing the courses as they were designed to be played. But on those days when your not swinging well and all of your clubs just can't seem to hit the ball, you're going to hear..."Why are you playing that old out-dated thing?... Why don't you take advantage of new technology???" Get used to it !!! Louisvillegolf.com has some very interesting articles to read. Check them out... And while you're at it, read "The Greatest Game ever played" and "The Match" both by Mark Frost. Very, very soulful books. Keep at it, Nutmeg

Was wondering if anyone out there might know if there are any video clips of the great Amateur of the past, E. Harvie Ward Jr. ? He won back to back US Amateurs in 1955-56 and was teamed up with Ken Venturi when they played against Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson in the famous best ball match at Cypress Point. The book by Mark Frost, "The Match" , which documents the game and the players involved has made my favorite golf book list. I love to watch the vintage swings of players like Jones and Snead etc. on youtube, but I can't seem to find any video of Harvie Ward. Anyone know if he is seen swinging a golf club in any available footage??? Thanks in advance, Nutmeg

Establishing a consistent, efficient and quick set-up routine to the ball. Releasing the club correctly while concentrating on a little supination of the left wrist and having the right wrist bent back a tad (Like the picture of Hogan on his Five Lessons book) Making golf swings on the golf course instead of hitting at the ball. I'll do my best to follow the principles discussed in "The Natural Golf Swing" by George Knudson and "Extaordinary Golf" by Fred Shoemaker.

Establish consistent pre-shot routine Swing through the ball and finish like a pro Break 90 consistently

Last time out (2nd time this year) I hit a 51. Had a good start with bogie, par, bogie but then came the dreaded Kafoozles on the next three holes. Played for about 6 years, took about 5 years off from the game and I'm now back into it for about 3 years. Way too many golf books, way too many lessons.... But this year I'm going to break that 40 barrier for 9 holes! ... ... I , ... think... ... .. . . .