Vintage Powerbilt Citation Irons… Forged or Cast?

[radiopreacher]

Greetings,

I've seen slightly different Powerbilt Citation clubs of this style of head advertised as "forged", but I'm not sure about mine.

Mine don't say LEVELUME or have the extra H&B insignia like those did.

I'm actually using more forgiving clubs, some cavity backs. Long story how I got these.

I also have some Walter Hagen "The Haig" (written in script) which I'm told are forged even though they're not the "Ultra"'s which I cleaned up, waxed with car wax, and pickled in my closet until I have any business hitting a blade or muscleback.

Was thinking of doing the same with these. If they're forged I'll pickle them and put them up with the Haigs until I'm skilled enough to truly try them side by side.

If they're cast I'll either pass them on or use them later, before the Haigs, to get used to less forgiving clubs before subjecting the Haigs to my swing.

Thanks

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by radiopreacher

[radiopreacher]

I'm new to metal-analysis and newish to golf and I'm sorry if this was s stupid question, like if these irons are somehow clearly cast, to the introductory-trained eye (like by looking at the writing formed into it rather than stamped), but I was confused because the metal seemed to have that same, stretchy-looking grain like the forged Haigs I have... (?) I did try looking up the answer but cannot find it anywhere. I suppose I'd guess "cast" if I had to for these irons, because of the way the logo looks, and because there are more premium versions/sets of Citations?

I should probably preface most emails with the fact that I'm particularly into vintage things more than my score in some games (although I do have a relatively modern set for other occasions). I love my Northwestern irons, though, for example. When I get a good shot they are amazing to me.

God as my witness, you have my word I'm not just crowd-sourcing y'all in a petty way trying to sell these irons or anything I post online or something, trying to get easy specs from you guys because I'm a seller. I do not sell golf equipment. I used to R&D and make archery equipment out of wood and composites.

I just really, really like vintage things and have storage space and like to plan for the future, whether I pass them on over time to someone special or keep them (and knowing more about them helps). I dig before I ask.

These came with, not persimmon, but unreal-feeling laminate woods I unexpectedly fell in love with and bought some softer balls for. While persimmon was and is a higher-brow thing, and while my Northwestern laminates feel crummy (love the NW irons tho), the Powerbilt laminate woods that came with this set are more rewarding to hit than some of my more modern steel ones from the late 90's and early 2000's. They have a thick metal sole and a hefty metal weight at the back, and I'd think would give some pure persimmon woods a run for their money. I also feel like it's less likely for the laminated Citation woods to form a crack in the hosel than aged, solid persimmon, and that comes from not only seeing lots of cracks in woods, but because -- even though I'm newer to golf, I am not new at all to hand-making performance sporting goods that put up with immense stress (bows and arrows). 

At first I was disappointed when I showed up with $50 for this set of Citation irons with 4 woods, because I thought surely the 3 Citation woods were solid persimmon, but to my surprise they weren't (the picture deceived me). But after swinging these relatively highly engineered, latter-day laminate PB Citation woods, on my property, I am really glad I bought them anyway and intend on restoring them (some moisture got under the finish and tarnished them, and I am experienced in finishing and re-finishing archery equipment...usually by using epoxy clear coat that cures best at 105-115F or so, always superior to cold-cure urethanes and so forth in archery, way more scratch and gouge and ding-resistant, but I'll do a golf-spin on my R&D... while they were R&D'd plenty leading up until their day, there's always room for experimentation in customizing the way we refinish well-aged sporting goods after they become old, which they weren't when they were made.   🙂  Maybe heat-cured archery bow epoxy will be too hard and crack more than a cold-cure acrylic or urethane etc., but I bought a handful of cheap laminate woods nobody wanted to experiment with re: refurbishing coatings. If I can re-strengthen old, dried-out wood while I refurbish how it looks, I'd rather do it than just stay true to the original materials (esp. since I'd either keep them or gift them to friends instead of claiming a purist restoration).

But I digress regarding my question about these irons. I'm thinking people are passing the thread by thinking I shouldn't bother people with the question until I can better identify obvious things? I did try looking it up, but the records I find are too ambiguous and do not delve into the differences between Citation, Citation Levelume (which people advertize as forged and which are even more commonly sold), etc.

Thanks,

Jeff

Edited March 19, 2019 by radiopreacher

[dbuck]

My guess on those is forged, but I honestly do not know for sure.  The fact that they are stainless sort of makes me think cast.

A quality laminate is more durable that persimmon, but a lot of laminates back in the day were not quality, and even quality ones were not taken care of as well as persimmon. I have some PING Eye2 laminates that while I shunned them when they were new, I find them great now. Probably the easiest wooden clubs to hit I've ever used. Don't pay more than a few bucks for either, unless they have some provenance to a famous player, person, or event. There are basically 2 generations of persimmon; those from the 50's and 60's, and those from the late 70's early 80's. The 70's and 80's saw a resurgence of persimmon as manufacturers began basically making repros of the 20 year old clubs that professionals were still using, and Japanese investors were paying $500 for.(We think prices are high now)  A very few of the first generation have some collector value, those of the second have none without provenance. A true new in the box item will bring a premium, but its not truly collectible at this point. Some websites will charge a lot more than they are worth; spend time haunting Goodwill and the like and you will find nice specimens for $5-10 per club.

Check out Dave Wood's website; he does some detailed restorations.

 

[radiopreacher]

Thanks so much dbuck for the thoughtful reply. I'm glad to know I'm not a total dunce for not knowing, myself. Now that you mention it, yes... the forged sets I have are not stainless haha..  the rather forged-seeming "the Haig" set I have as well as the Sears Roebuck "Bob Murphy Jr." set are both clearly chrome plated. 

I do have  Northwesterns that are cast cavity-backs and are chrome plated, and I have numerous cast stainless cavity-backs...

 but I don't have any "surely forged" stainless sets...and so it's coincidental that you pointed that out just as I began to wonder if there were forged stainless clubs...

I initially overlooked the stainless stamp on these Citations because they seem so much brighter silver colored than some of my relatively pewter-hued stainless club heads.

And thanks for the thoughts and references about woods.

Indeed, these laminated Citations make me want to find another set just like them while nice ones are still cheap. I'm not quite traditional enough to want older woods that aren't weighted like these... but I get more out of these than I do my 90's and early 2000's metal woods... only several relatively recent and advanced models of woods or hybrids that I've been able to afford truly compare.

Thanks

[radiopreacher]

29 minutes ago, radiopreacher said:

... only several relatively recent and advanced models of woods or hybrids that I've been able to afford truly compare.

My quote there was too old by a few minutes to edit. I should say "compare or exceed". Surely I have a couple of barely used Adams and Taylormade woods and/or hybrids that outperform these old yet highly back and sole weighted, not-so-convex-faced Powerbilt Citation woods I found I like so much... but my skill level is only consistently showing the hybrids being a bit easier to hit, just yet, and the high tech woods are honestly still about neck to neck... I'm sure as I get better it will weed out the randomness factor and the metal woods that are within a few years old will out perform the Citations. But I'm dubious any of the 90's or early 2000's metal woods ever will no matter how much better I get. Of course I'd have to define performance as total distance, predictable/consistent distance, and/or going where I intend, and that's at least three categories... I sure love returning to this sport (not that I got far as a kid).

If I ever knew that practice balls (hollow or foam) would actually fly as well and as far as they do, and give you as much of an idea of hooking or slicing as they do, I'd have begun practicing here on the lot where I live a lot sooner!

Thanks again

Edited March 27, 2019 by radiopreacher

[Bruce Scherer]

I play an exact copy of your Citations, and they are cast stainless. By the way, I've been looking for another set for my Florida place (I'm from Toledo). Let me know if you are interested in selling them.

 

Bruce