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johnclayton1982

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Everything posted by johnclayton1982

  1. Quote: How many people in your group? How many in the group behind? And most importantly of all, where was the group in front of you? 2 (including me) in my group, 2 in the group behind. Group in front was within sight most of the round, and on the next green while I was looking at this shot. They moved to the 13th tee while I was putting. So the 12th hole was open in between my group and that group while this was going on. The group in front had 3, and those 3 were playing faster or about our pace for most of the round. The group ahead I am assuming were on a local college team as they had matching bags and were pretty good. Quote: Also if you were by yourself you were pacing 3.5 hours which is not very quick at all as a one and if that is the case then this post makes you sound like a selfish person who feels like you bought the course for your green fee instead of just paying to play on it and screw anybody else and their desire to play golf. I was in a group of 2. My course does not change POP based on number in the group. Quote: And you don't specify but if you were by yourself and there was a "group" on the box behind you then you were either slow the whole time or a "significant amount of time" was way too long This is kinda my entire point, right here. You don't get to decide if it was too long. Its my decision how to allocate my time on the course. You get to complain if I play over the POP, which I shattered. I get I won't convince some people that the whole "play to the groups around you" thing is silly, but I consider it much more of an etiquiette breach to do stuff like the "whats going on hand gestures", shouting "yip" and doing wolf whistles than playing "slow" (
  2. I played an afternoon 12 yesterday. On the par 3 11th I hooked an 8 iron into a greenside bunker. It was a very poor shot. When I got up to my ball, I was buried somewhat in the face. I had two options. One, go high out of the bunker to the middle of the green and try a 10 footer for par. Or hit low into a slope and try to get it close, but risk the lip. It took me a significant amount of time to make this decision. The group on the tee behind me started to get agitated doing the "what are you doing" arms raises and whistling. I played the 12 holes in about 2 hours and 20 minutes, which is a pretty good pace. But since I took a while on this shot, they started with the grief. I ignored them and hit a decent shot. But its annoying dealing with those people. Don't be that guy. If I'm playing briskly and stop for a reason you can't identify, theres probably a good reason. I just get very annoyed at posts like the OP. I will take as many practice shots as I want. I will take as long as I need to figure out how to hit out of this bunker. As long as the overall pace is fine, leave me alone. This is why its annoying to read lists like "don't take a bunch of practice swings" or "you'll play better faster" or "hit immediately when its your turn". Its all subjective. 1. they aren't true for everyone and 2. its none of your business! SO you'd rather someone take five hours but do everything "correctly" than have a guy on his phone that takes 3 and a half? The only thing that matters is overall pace. Period. All the little nit-picky stuff is annoying and, quite frankly, it probably hurts your game to being constantly monitoring if people in front of you are committing what are, in your own mind, speed faux pas on the course. If you are at a good pace and you slow down for a hole, you shouldn't get crap from people behind you because your mannerisms aren't what they think of as fast.
  3. Quote: Not sure how revealing it is about the other posters who are probably better players than Dan. My perspective is entirely from reading his writeup, and seeing myself in a similar situation. The point of my post was that it is very hard (impossible?) to self-diagnose swing errors, even with video. He needs a good teacher.
  4. Quote: I'm not familiar with a "POP" Never seen a sign relating to a "POP" Not sure if the courses I play even have a "POP" You should probably ask before you get PO'd at people on your course for playing speed.....
  5. I'd also be debating between the 6 or the 7 on a 164 yard par 3. About in the middle. This is a pretty interesting thread. Its pretty revealing that people are arguing like crazy on these boards about what his problems are, and yet people still think they can reliably self-diagnose. Seems like he needs a really good instructor and a lot of money to spend on a lot of time with him/her.
  6. Quote: Not actual swings where I stand over an imaginary ball, check posture grip and stance, then take full swings, holding my finish, and gazing at the sky till my imaginary ball lands softly on the green next to the pin! It's people who do this, and repeat twice, then top it 40 yards I was referring to! This is the beauty of a POP. People do whatever they want but have to maintain a certain pace. A high handicapper that wastes a ton of shots can't have a long preshot routine etc.... but a low capper can. Its all relative. You can't set down subjective rules like this. The only thing that makes sense is to have a "time the round takes" and make everyone fit under it according to their own game. Having a rule like "don't take practice swings if you top the ball" is impossible to enforce and silly. Now, maybe you can argue that the POP should be 3 and a half hours, and that's fine. But having anything but an objective standard just leads to people thinking they are fast and everyone else is slow.
  7. Quote: I think the vast majority would agree that a POP recommendation is a minimum speed, and most everybody would ideally be ahead of that. The POP is that it is just that - the posted pace of play. I'm not "keeping up" with two groups playing 3 and a half hour rounds just because they happen to be put to either side of me. I enjoy my time out there. I'm not in a hurry to get it finished. The POP is the POP. You like playing fast rounds. I don't. Ideally, everyone would play their round per the rules set by the course, which is 4 hours and 15 minutes. I dislike a 3 and half hour round as much as I dislike a five hour round. Quote: One of the things I love about golf is that when I am on the course, the only thing I think about is golf. Obviously this isn't true, as you don't think about "only golf" - you get annoyed by what other people are doing, as you''ve said. Thinking about only golf would mean you play to the POP and ignore everyone else which, as you've said, you don't do, as you allow people on cell phones to bother you. Quote: I get the feeling you know it is bad manners, which is why you are so defensive about it I'm not really "defensive" about it, more just sick of it. I don't think you getting put behind me on the course allows you to dictate how fast I need to play or what I need to do while I'm playing golf. About two weeks ago, a group actually told us to hurry up when we made the turn in an hour and fifty minutes. We are on pace to shatter the POP. EDIT: It was a twosome behind our threesome. This is what I hate - they didn't care what the speed was, they just didn't want to wait. This is the problem with teaching people that speed is dependant on "keeping up" with another group. Everyone, under that theory, should match their speed to the fastest group. That's silly. Its my round. You don't get to dictate how fast I play. The course does, through its rules. Now, yes, you don't take this to extremes. I'm not saying I can just sit on my cell for 10 minutes while you wait fuming. That would be silly. However, its pretty annoying to get a 3 hour speed demon group behind you and have them give you crap. The POP is 4 hours 15 minutes. If I'm playing at a brisk pace, and I get a call, I'm taking it. If I finish in less than the POP, its none of your business. I agree 5 hour rounds are awful. But some people (like myself) don't like 3 hour rounds either. The POP is a nice, steady pace at my local, and I really don't understand this unsaid obligation to play fast because you happen to be put in front of fast players.
  8. I agree its a jerk move to just sit in front of a faster group on an empty course. As I said, you should always let people play through if you can, course is empty, single behind you, etc... but if the course is relatively crowded and your playing to the POP, who cares about anything else. I don't play faster because I happen to be put behind a speed demon group. I don't play faster because I happen to be put in front of a speed demon group. Matching your speed to the groups around you lets other dictate your game to you. If the course is relatively empty, I'll let a group through, but if I can't, I don't speed up. I play my round 4 hours and 15 minutes. This comes up sometimes, because I am not a fast player on the greens. I am fast with the full swing, but I am very slow with a putter or a wedge in my hand. My last round was just over 4 hours and my group got some crap on the 16th tee (which is very close to 15 green) for "taking so long" on the greens from one of the other guys on the course. He said something like "you gotta speed up on the greens guys. c'mon." (prolly why I posted so vehemently in this thread lol). No, I don't. The round is 4 hours and 15 minutes. I'm under that. Go cry to the rules committee. If they lower the POP, I'll play faster. Quote: But if there is room in front of you and your phone conversations are making the people behind you wait, then to heck with the POP, you need to hang up and move your butt or let them play through. We disagree. The posted round time is the posted round time. I don't have to move my butt. I have to play the round in 4 hours and 15 minutes. If I can let you through, I will. But if I'm on pace, I'm playing my game, I'm ignoring you. What you are basically saying here is "you have a duty to play as fast as the groups around you, no matter how fast or crazy they might be, match your speed to theirs." That's silly, IMO. If that's what I should do, why have a POP?
  9. Quote: Fine, just don't expect people to like it anymore than they like farts on an airplane. I don't get this. Farts on an airplane are obviously awful. If I'm up the fairway talking on a cell phone and your on the tee, *And I'm playing to the POP*, what business is it of yours? Is it better if I read a book for 30 seconds before I hit my ball? If I'm playing to the POP, what I'm doing has nothing to do with you. Now, if you want to say you don't like hearing someone talk on a cell phone, that's different. But if your angry because someone could be playing faster w/o the phone (but they are still adhering to the POP) go yell in a wind tunnel. Its a big sign at the first tee that a round takes 4 hours 15 minutes. I'm sorry you want it to be faster, but the rules are the rules.
  10. Quote: I like your point about the cell phones. I HATE PEOPLE THAT TALK ON THEIR CELL PHONES ON THE GOLF COURSE!!! Seriously, shut the dang things off, leave it in your car, etc. If you are conducting business or work, then go to work and do that, don't bring it to the course. Your girlfriend/wife will have to wait until you finish your round, to find out whats for dinner. I did this once, felt like I was inconsiderate of my playing partners. Now I leave my cell phone in the car during rounds. If they are doing all of this but playing under the POP, don't complain, because who cares. If they are doing all of this and playing above the POP, you should complain, but you should complain that they arn't playing to the POP not that they are on the cell phone or whatever. If your course doesn't have a POP, go complain about that. What people do on the course is irrelevant. Its my time, not yours. If I want to talk on the phone for a minute then hit all my shots really fast (staying under the POP) you should have nothing to say about it. What is relevant is whether they are adhering to the posted pace of play. That's all that matters. Everything else is just noise and personal preference. I talk on my cell phone on the course all the time, just like I talk on it in the car, at a coffee shop, at the office, or whereever I am. As long as I play under the POP, its none of your business.
  11. Yay, another one of these threads. The posted pace of play at my course is 4 hours 15 minutes. I will play under that. If they change the POP, I will play under that. If the course doesn't have a POP, its their fault and I'll play at whatever pace I want until they post a POP (round 4 hours usually). I will not adjust my pace faster because the group in front happen to be speed demons. I will not adjust my pace faster because the group behind me happen to be speed demons. I will let anyone through who is significantly faster provided there is room to do so. I will enjoy the day and my time out, and, as long as I'm playing under the POP, ignore everyone else. I will play to the POP. If there is no POP, I will play to about 4 hours, since every course I've ever been on with a POP is w/n 15 minutes of 4 hours. I will do no more, and no less, than that. That is all.
  12. Quote: I'd say with enough money (to take time away from work, pay bills, afford lessons, range time, playing, fitness, equipment, etc.) yeah someone with decent athletic ability could get to scratch in a year. Could they get to the tour? Not sure. Depends on the person. Maybe scratch is as good as they can get. Maybe they can get to a +2. +2 isn't going to win any money out there either though :) I am self-employed (read: my employees run my business, I don't work much) and have spent a ton of time getting better at golf. I'm a good athlete with a background in another stick-and-ball sport (tennis). It took me roughly four years of playing every day to go from a 30 handicap to a 4 handicap. I'm not close to scratch. I think it has much more to do with he brain than the body. This is just IMO.
  13. Quote: I'm guessing that you do not need a fitting as you already have the shaft specifications? Well, I was fit into that shaft at around a 13 handicap. I want to look into trying something else, just not sure how to find a reputable clubfitter in my area.
  14. Your mileage may vary. Give it a shot on the range and let us know how it goes. Make sure you've got some shaft lean at address so you aren't grooving flipping (you want your right hand to return just beyond the ball not at or before the ball). Make sure that left knee is going slightly into the ball. Its easy to get lazy and just do the drill with your arm only which doesn't help you feel anything.
  15. Quote: Those temporary fixes have vanished and I've put up a bunch of crap this year and that number has climbed to 10.1 and is about to go much higher because I stink right now. Just means your due to go low.
  16. One little move that helped me capture this feel is to, at address, take your right hand off the club. So your left hand has the club soled on the ground. Swing back with your right hand only, feeling your left knee go in toward the ball and the rest of your backswing happen in tempo (but keeping your left hand on the club). Go back about 1/2 way to 3/4 of the way with an empty right hand, left knee flexing in to the ball and the left hand still on the soled club. Make sure your right arm and hand stays limp during this move. The only way you can possibly return your limp right arm to the club is to allow it to fall for a split-second and then rotate your body to the club. If you throw you body down first (you won't, because it will feel really weird to do that) your right hand would get stuck behind you. You have to allow gravity to start it to return it to the club. I'd do 3 or 4 and then hit a ball, trying to duplicate the arms / body feel that the drill had at address. This little feel helped me a lot in feeling the proper sequencing in the backswing/downswing, but after a split-second pause at the top. YMMV, obv.
  17. Today at the range the Fujikura Fit-On Max 300 I'd been gaming for about 18 months snapped. It was odd, and it was near or at impact. I was hitting full-out drivers and the shaft snapped in half about an inch above the hosel. What can cause a driver shaft to just snap like that? Its fairly stiff, so I don't think it as my swing speed or anything and no sign for last 17 months there as an issue. Now I need to get a new driver, well, shaft at least. I have a fairly old driver head as well, so wondering how you guy would go about getting a replacement. Trouble is, my "clubfitter" that did my putter just does Edel stuff. Anyone have good experience with Dick's or Edwin Watts? Go there? Or is there a good way to find a fitter for a driver? Anyone have any drivers or shafts they particularly like? I don't know my swing speed, but I'm about 255-260 carry with fairly low ball flight.
  18. We need to know more about you and your game. How do you play? What do you struggle with? Were your current clubs ever tested for loft and lie? If you got them all used, they could be nuts, setup wise. What is your budget? EDIT: The best addition you could make to your bag would be a sandtrap.com avatar.
  19. Quote: I don't hit my longer irons worth a darn either. So, if minimizing score is the be-all, end-all of every round, I shouldn't hit anything other than 5-wood and my short irons. JohnClayton's point isn't entirely lost on me. I suppose it might be a good mental approach to take a competitive attitude with you on the course even if you are a long way from really being competitive. I suppose I'll be thinking about it, next time out. What worked for me as a high-capper was to have one round a week as my "real" round, where I did everything I could to shoot as low as I could. For me, that was Saturday. I usually got out there on Tues or Wend too, and worked on stuff, messed around, played skins, whatever. But I think its important that you practice and work on shooting the best score you can. Its really hard (impossible) to "turn it on" when you actually do care about scoring, be it in a week or a year. It doesn't work that way. If you think you'll shoot your best round with 5 wood and short irons only, you should have at least a round a week where you do just that. And if it doesn't work, try something else. But the main focus should be on shooting a score. It was #10 on my list of things to improve to get from 100+ to the mid 80s: http://thesandtrap.com/t/49746/post-mortem-130-to-88-in-6-months-what-worked-what-did-not
  20. Quote: If the goal is to post your lowest score and one is very inconsistent with the diver (almost never on fairway, lots of OOB and penalties) it makes sense to leave it at home or in the bag. The question is what level of consistency warrants hitting driver if the goal is shooting the lowest score. If I hit 7i off the tee on every hole I am making it almost impossible to shoot less than bogey / double bogey on every hole except Par 3's so you have to consider the risk reward of leaving the driver in the bag. Also some people hit their driver better at the range than on the course and for those people gaining confidence with it on the course is a way to overcome the mental part of it. I'm not trying to make a comment on whether or not you should hit driver or 7 iron. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if you make the wrong choice. My comment was aimed at people who have the attitude that their "working on their game" or "getting comfortable" out on the course, so they hit driver b/c they want to learn how to do it. I think that's a pretty good way to stay a high handicapper forever. Trying and focusing to hit the correct shot (not necessarily driver or any particular club) for every shot is a skill that must be practiced. I'm making a point bigger than "driver or 7 iron?". Quote: The question is what level of consistency warrants hitting driver if the goal is shooting the lowest score. Exactly. And this is something all players need to do on their own. I was commenting on the few posters' whose answer to this question was "what the heck, I need to learn driver eventually, so I hit it on the course". To me, that's silly and hurts your game in the long run. Its not important if you get the right answer. Its important to get used to asking the questions on a golf course, during a round. Taking the attitude of "its not competitive anyways" every time you tee it up is a pretty good way to insure that when it *is* competitive (or you want to shoot low, for whatever reason) you get freaked out and choke. You need to practice trying to shoot the lowest score possible. Its very important to getting better IMO.
  21. Quote: I think you've missed my point, what I was attempting to say is I don't think high handicappers like myself should necessarily back away from using the club a particular shot calls for just because they aren't fully proficient with that shot/club (in my case its my driver). No, I got your point. I think that is a bad attitude to take on the course. If hitting 7i is what you think will lead to lowest score, hit it. If you think driver will lead to your lowest score, hit that. This idea that you're "getting used" to clubs anywhere but the range is nuts. Get in the habit that when your on the course your only goal is to shoot the lowest score you possibly can. That habit is worth way more than any "comfort" your going to get out of hitting the driver 14 extra times a week. All this other nonsense - "I want to get comfortable with it, I want to get better with it" - are things for the range. Quote: Short term, that may negatively impact my scores and (for me personally) I'm OK with that since I think my overall long-term game will be better than say someone at my same level now who will only tee off with a 7 iron becasue he knows he'll keep it in the fairway. Totally disagree. If that guy who is teeing off with a 7 iron has spent a year on the course trying to go as low as possible and you've spent a year trying to "get comfortable" or whatever your saying he will crush you.
  22. Quote: This is exactly how I feel. I know my driver is, by far, the weakest club in my bag but the only way I'm going to learn to hit it is...well...to actually hit it. Now, having said that, if its a short par 4 (for me that's anything under say 350 yards) then I'll opt for my 3W. Granted, I understand that on say a 400 yard par 4, I probably have a better chance to post a lower score going with a 3W or 5W off the tee and leaving myself a long hybrid aproach to the green but I typically grab my driver on any hole longer then 350-360 yards and try to get in mid-iron range. Has nothing to do with ego, either, but I just feel like if I ultimately want to get better, especailly on longer, more challenging courses, then I have to learn to hit all the clubs in my bag. Sure, more time on the range helps (and I do spend a fair amount of time practicing with it) but in the end there's no substituting actual "game" confidence with any particular club even if it means sacrificing the score card in the short term every now and again to get there. I see how that makes logical sense, but I disagree with you. First, you aren't getting better with your driver hitting it the fourteen times you are out on the course. That's a silly reason. As far as mechanical practice, that nonsense. It may be the weakest club in your bag, but 14 repetitions is so small in terms of what is necessary to groove an improvement it may as well be zero. Further, while you may claim driver to be the weakest in your bag, I'm willing to bet that if we actually measured it your 3W wouldn't be far behind. Not trying to be condescending, just think its an accurate statement. Second, and in my mind more important, trying to shoot the lowest score possible is a skill. I know it sounds silly, but its important. Anytime you "really" step on the course you should try as hard a you can to shoot the lowest score you can. Sure, people play practice rounds and hit multiple balls etc.. that's not what I mean. When your trying to shoot for a score you should try to shoot for a score, because that is a skill that needs to be practiced. One of the hardest things in golf is to stay focused for every shot every round. You need to practice that skill. While I realize this sounds somewhat silly, I personally believe its important. You need to feel pressure. The only way to do that is to try as hard as you can to shoot as low as you can. If you just hit driver and don't think about it, you are giving yourself a mental "out". You can say "yeah, I shot a bad score, but I was working on my driver". That is significantly mentally easier than trying to stay positive and tough while trying a hard as you can. Shooting low - "scoring" - is a skill, and it needs to be practiced *Even when* you have poor mechanics, if your ultimate goal is to shoot the lowest scores over time. I think you'll find that if you get better at staying focused on every shot and concentrating on scoring the very best you can, your mechanics will get better. You won't drop five off your handicap, but over time this skill is valuable. IMO, what the OP was trying to say instead of "course management" was "lack of focus" - i.e. "its a tee shot, so I hit driver. I'm 130, so I hit 8 iron", as opposed to engaging every shot you are about to hit and judging the pros and cons of different strategies. You may come to the conclusion that you should hit driver every tee - but that conclusion should be part of a focused effort to shoot the lowest score possible. The post quoted above is, IMO, a poor approach. *Even if* the 3W doesn't *Actually* matter in terms of scoring better for you right now statistically, the focus on the score and the focus on every shot you hit and getting in the habit of thinking - even if your conclusion is "hit driver" - is very, very important. I don't think he meant specifically "hit driver less" I think he meant more generally "think more". Quote: The way I look at it is 1) I'm not playing competitively anyway, 2) I'm eventually going to have to learn how to hit a driver and 3) the closer to the hole the better. Its absolutely true that you will have to learn driver eventually. It is also true you are going to have to learn how to think on a golf course eventually. Which is better for practicing on the range and which is better for practicing on the course? Which sets you up better for a tournament/pressure golf situation? Playing all your rounds with the attitude of "its not competitive anyway" or "I am going to do everything I can to shoot the lowest score possible" ? The hardest thing to do in golf is to produce your best golf when you most want to produce it. The only way to get better at that is to experience trying to play your best golf (i.e. shoot your lowest score) as many times as possible. To practice trying. That is, IMO, a really important component to getting better. All IMO.
  23. Quote: Not much point to good strategy if you can't hit the shots you wanted to. I disagree with this. Even high handicappers can cheat. Take a green complex with water on the right but that is open left. Say its a par 3, oh, 160 yards. At a 20 hdcp I hit my 6 iron about 150ish. Tee it up left, aim left of the left edge, preset weight left, ball back in stance. You have set yourself up for good contact with the maximum room to miss. Since you (hopefully) have decreased your chances of hitting it fat, and you are aimed at the left side, the "most likely" miss by far is a slice, thin line drive - which should be pretty good given where your aimed. Could you put it in the water? Of course you could. But you've *significantly* decreased your chances over taking a normal stance from the middle of the tee box aimed at the pin near the water. I don't think its just "oh well, can't hit it good anyway, better take dead aim and hit driver every time". That isn't how you get better. Even if your thoughts are wrong, get used to thinking. Slowing down to think is a skill that needs to be practiced as much as hitting a club. If you don't practice thinking about what you are trying to do on a hole you'll never improve the management skill, and you'll struggle even as your game improves. As a high handicapper, you need to start exploring and developing the relationship between your setup/stance/contact and the shot you see in your head. It has to start somewhere. You need to learn what the ball back in your stance does. I agree its silly to swing normally and do everything else the same and think "i'm gonna hit it here!". But as you start to experiment you start to learn. If you don't experiment, you don't learn. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean its not helpful. You are grooving a mental game for when your swing improves. Even if my 6 iron example, above, is way off, you are still much better off learning to think while out there than just blasting balls around because "what the heck, I'll hit it bad anyways".
  24. I have a buddy who plays with me quite a bit who entered the local Friday qualifier for the Zurich Classic (our New Orleans PGA stop). He is a good player, and routinely shoots under par on our home course. He plays off around my handicap (3-4ish). He shot over 95 and finished last. You can look up the results and find him but please don't type his name in here so it can be found by google search. I'm pretty sure his handicap is legit and he shot over 95. It was his third tournament and it was in pretty insane wind (as a reference point, +3 qualified which is *really high*). I'm not ready to indict the OP on his handicap for what he shot in the open, but I agree with Shorty that the way he is talking post-round is odd for a +2. I'm also not familiar enough to know if there is a huge difference between +2 and 3-4.
  25. Quote: One hole isn't a good example, and a bit of an exaggeration in comparing the skill and ability of pro's versus non-pro's. Pro's have blow up holes and if they happen to occur at the same time the bogey golfer plays at his best it's possible for the bogey golfer to score lower on one hole. Winning one hole out of 18 isn't much of a feat, nor does it make much of a statement about the differences between a pro and non-pro. Perhaps you are right. I stopped responding when I started getting hideously misquoted, but the topic came up because someone questioned how, if I was any good at tennis at all, I managed to win only two points in a set against a guy who himself didn't make it. I was trying to illustrate its a bit like a 1 or 2 handicap (fine golfers) not winning a hole off a pro in match play. But your right, it may be a bad example. I still think it would take quite a few 18 hole rounds to happen. Quote: It's not mythical, it's real. Think about all the college athletes that play D1 and D2 and never even sniff pro level status or fail once they make it to the pros. The thing is, most athletes, in order to get close, honestly believe they are going to make it. Jim Calhoun (ex-UCONN coach) has a great story in his book where he had his players (12 basketball players) fill out a survey about where they'll be in five years. 11 said playing in the NBA. None did. Virtually everyone on my college tennis team knew they'd be on the ATP tour. None made it and most didn't get a single start. Its unfortunate the thread kinda went down a rabbit hole, but it is incredible how good the professionals are when you consider they are the best of the best from the entire world.
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