RichF

Come on man...h e struggles with long clubs, the driver and at times the 3-fairway, and he struggles with 8i up. His putting, especially down the stretch in majors, has been, by any standard let alone the bar he set for himself, poor. Zero sub-par rounds on the weekend in majors? That's middle-leaderboard golf and if anyone really believes that he is just not of the mindset to turn on the sluice of talent he has on reserve...then what is he waiting for? I just do not understand how anyone can objectively believe there is no possibility that he has lost 'something' he once had. Closing majors is an issue for Tiger, fearing the driver is an issue for Tiger, Putting under pressure in majors is an issue for Tiger, Hitting 9i-SW inside 70-100 yards is an issue for Tiger. However, I digress onto the subject of 'Can We All Finally Agree Tiger Is Done'? In all seriousness, when asked, "Will Woods do 'X' in his career " I can honestly say: "I don't know ." My personal opinion has always been that it's reasonable for anyone to have a view of Tiger The Golfer and Tiger The Person: he is among the best, if not the best, of all time at the former, and a rather bad example of the latter. As for Tiger The Golfer these days there are plenty of reasons to to think he will fall short of 18, 19 or even 15. However, looking at things positively: 1 - This is the first full, healthy season of play he has had since November 2009 2 - It has taken him about two full seasons for his previous major swing overhauls to gel, such that he could simply play and not have to think about the changes 3 - The flaws in his current game have always been the last aspects of his game to finally come under control as a result of the changes A lot have advocated Tiger returning to Butch Harmon to work out a swing that both protects his health and seeks to bring back his power and his exquisite shot making ability. Because that is what is missing with Foley's swing: he is no longer a shot maker in my opinion and that's what's stopping him from hitting #15. His record and winnings in non-Majors is all great but not relevant to this topic of discussion....which is Tiger Done/Not done and the former means 'winning Majors'. We all know that is all that matters to both Tiger and history. Plus, it's really what this thread is about because if you ask Tiger about his standard for success in Majors he will tell you that " second place sucks ". That is what he believes, it was once what his fans believed and now that he is 4 years dry then winning the AP Invitational...The Memorial...AT&T; National...and being #2 in the OGWR ( which, incidentally, wasn't 'all that' last year when Messrs Kaymer, Donald and Westwood were there ) is the standard to go by for success because for Tiger and the faithfull.... it fits the "#15 any time now" narrative.

People go on and on about Woods having the yips, with both his driver and putter, his training but it's really all mental. He led the PGA and then choked away the lead over the weekend - has some problems up top. He didn't post a single round under par this year in a major on Saturday or Sunday. No matter what the conditions, no matter how his driver, putter, or anything else was behaving. If one was going good, another thing would malfunction. Tiger isn't giving himself a lot of birdie opportunities off the tee. When you're laying up and hitting 5 and 6 into greens, you're looking at a 2-putt. Unless he can regain the confidence to use the driver more and sharpen his wedge play like Rors, then he's just fighting an uphill battle in my mind. Haney hit on this in his great book 'The Big Miss' ( if anyone here hasn't read it yet...do your self a favor - read it .): his fear of the driver really showed up at Augusta, where you have to shape off the tee. Can't hit 2 iron stingers there. Many have pointed at Tiger's total driving stat this year, yawwwnnn, but that has been padded by many fairways hit with 2 irons. When he is asked to rely on the driver on big courses, he can't get it done. The Open Championship highlighted his weakness in the final round. Hitting a 2 into the the wind on a 460 yard par 4 and leaving himself with 230-240 spoke volumes about his lack of confidence in the driver. He has won this year on set ups where he could get around with the 2 (Congressional's hard fairways, and Bay Hill) or where the fairways are wide and you don't have to shape the driver (Muirfield Village). He has done poorly where the driver is a requirement (TPC, Augusta, Olympic, Lytham, Firestone, Kiawah). The guy has come to realize that he is no longer viewed as some kind of golf 'bad-ass' who wants to "kick your butt " everytime he tees it up. The guy is almost 40, hasn't won a Major in over 4 years, and is losing ground on the field daily. That ain't going to change...no matter how often people use the 'Jack-won-his-last-Major-at-46-so-that-gives-Tiger-plenty-of-time' analogy. That doesn't hold any water when you realise Jack's 18th was a rarity - his last great season came when he was 40. 'The Rors Era', (ridiculous as it sounds - media and general public alike will call it that) is now, regardless of what he's achieved at this time of his career compared to Woods (i.e. massive difference)

I don't really pay too much attention until a 'red light' appears! After eight professional rounds he’s shot: 62, 65, 66, 66, 67, 67, 69 and 70 I've now read he might get sponsor's exemptions to play on some PGA Tour events this year.

(not strictly a 'PGA Tour' story but directly related to it) Ben Kohles , 22, won his 2nd straight tournament in a row on the Web.com Tour - his 2nd win in his first 2 starts! 9-under 62 final round, 17/18 GIR $261,000 thank you very much. Thoughts?

Those guys are bad-ass . They use real bullets and stuff...

"It's a process" Hey, anyone know how many 'reps' Woods needs to actually get back 'in the mix' nowadays?

Geoff Ogilvy. What's with the drain-pipe pants and gigantic shoes? Now he's got that ridiculous moustache going on as well. Tool.

Excellent posts, Chas.

The idea that anyone would prefer this story to come out any other time doesnt really hold any water - they'd rather it not be told at all The reason for this is that initial instinct to blame the media, accuse the people making statements that put Woods in a bad light, and give him a free pass. Because he remains above scrutiny, yeah?

Quote: Well, I can see what your trying to say but there is a difference between what transpired circa 2009 and beyond and is now generally know to be pretty factual (is anyone disputing it?) and the things that HH wrote from personal, first-hand experience. To be honest, the bits that got 'leaked' a few weeks ago are pretty much 'quick-eyebrow-raise-and-move-on-with-the-story' - the actual golf parts of the book Im more interested in. Tiger becoming a popsicle-waving-Poutler-bashing-waitress-nailing-kick-ass-Navy-SEAL is a mere bagatelle!

Quote: People can only judge this book if they've read it. Unfoetunately, you need to debate such matters with people of an 'open mind'. It's very reminiscant of religious Bible Belt followers stating that pornography, sex and violence is blasphemous and that we're all going to hell...when, deep-down, secretly behind their own closed doors...well, you know how it goes.

Quote: Yeah, I agree...but golf-talk ain't going to sell books alone. I don't know what the sales of 'Unplayable' or Chasing Tiger' or 'Follow The Roar' or 'How I Play Golf by Tiger Woods' are (all of which incidentally, I also own), are...but regardless of the fact they aren't written by anone close to the Woods camp, I suspect they wouldnt put a dent in the sales of HH's book. If 'The Big Miss' just talked about how much prep goes into a Major or how Tiger's works on his 9-shot practice routine, or what irons he actually plays, yadda-yadda-yada it wouldnt have sold. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just naive and needs to remove their head from their a$$. People don't just want to read books 'just about golf'. I wouldn't think books 'just about golf' are high on anyone's Christmas List (well, depends on how dull one is) - that's how today's generation is. Hence, why the attendance numbers drop at a golf tournament when Woods isn't playing: people don't just want to watch 'other golfers'. 'Tiger Woods' is a brand name. Tiger Woods is an icon - people want to know about EVERYTHING. Unfortunately, the book isn't solely aimed at hardcore golf-freaks talking on a Forum...if it was, Haney would be a mug for even writing such a book. Books 'just about golf'....well, I don't think they 'move the needle' , do they, Erik?

Quote: I finished it last week and I would love to talk about what's in it...but really, what's the point? Haney could have written the most positive, one-sided, plaudit-riddled book on Tiger ever ...yet because it isn't 'official' or been 'approved' by Tiger or Steiny or whoever, the idiots would still be whining about this mythical 'Teacher/Pupil' code.and 'respect of privacy' bullsh!t that they're conveniently using to bash Haney with now, because now the book has shown to be exactly the opposite to what they originally thought.

Quote: I did. Both times. I chuckled. Anyway...have you read the book yet, sonny?

Quote: Funniest post of the thread and hot-favortite for the 'Over-Senstive-Tiger-Fan-Of-The-Year' award Anyway, read the book.

Quote: Read the book.

Quote: Actually, it seems you're going to be in majority now that the book actually tells us the opposite of what the media-snippets suggested. I finished it last night and as predicted, an excellent book...No 'Tiger-bashing' at all - but did portray him as pretty much everyone knows now. First 120 pages are nothing but praise for Woods and overall its a a fair and balanced account of the period HH spent with Woods. The overall impression is one we all know and that is Tiger is the best golfer we've ever seen, but his full swing changes have taken too much time away from his short game. There were at least 3 or 4 majors that Hank talked about Tiger's putting stats, and his putter was the weapon that did him in. Unfortunately, certain people that haven't read the book and generally are of the opinion that HH is scum... regardless of the book because now the book is out and proves NOT to be what they all thought it would, they bang on and on about the 'client-confidentially' issue, so now they're put in a dilemma: They hate Hank but want to read the book but don't want Hank to make any money off Tiger. Do yourselves a favor: read the book and then make an objective comment.

Quote: +1 McDowell was finishing off a career-best year in that year-end tournament and it still went to the final hole. If Woods doesn't physically knacker himself today, I think he'll win this tournament by 2 or 3 shots...driving accuracy has crept up big-time so he just needs the putter going again (which from yesterday's round, is also showing signs of) Also agree with the Masters comment too... regardless of how he's playing, he always has to be in the mix for the Top 5 So, yeah, I'm eating crow right now as I never thought he'd keep it together for 4 rounds in any tournament.

The biggest problem for Woods-Followers with this book is it's accuracy. Where is Woods to challenge even one single thing in the book? Where are the legion to blow holes in it? Well they can't. And as usual the only avenue left for the fanboy is to target The Messenger because the message is true. Writing this book as open and honest as this was a brave decision by Haney considering the religious-nuts that makes up a strong majority of Woods fandom. Hank is giving a look into 'the man'. Difference here is that, being most of the other books didn't have a full-on coach dealing with a self-absorbed narcissist. If the book was about how he got Eldrick to keep the upper left arm close to his body rather than separated and roll through on release rather than extend... and how this helped Woods to go on to win more majors in such a short time than any one coach-player in history (as MANY of the fan-club state) , the book wouldn't be worth releasing. But there was way moreto the story...HH is shedding light on the the 'person' that is Tiger Woods... and good for him, because you average journo-hack sure won't as they are scared they might not get an interview. The me that comes out of this book, the better it becomes...hope we haven't even heard the best stuff yet.

Quote: Nice one from jamo for once... Quote: Good post. Haney will need security for a couple of years because everyone is going to be out to get him. But like I said, years from now this book will probably be the bench-mark for discussing Woods' behavior off the course and analyzing his career and personality. Eventually, when looking back, folks will lolok at this book in a better light. The problem is, when you idolize someone (and as we see, even grown men), deep down, you don't want to know that they make mistakes. You don't want to know that the hero-poster on your wall is of a guy who might rather undergo root canal then say 'Hi to you. 'The Big Miss' (snippets): Haney also tells of a woman who approached him during an outing in Minnesota last year. Her husband was a Navy SEAL in California and told her Woods came in for training in 2007 at a Kill House – an urban-warfare simulator – and 'got kicked pretty hard in the leg' , and I think he hurt his knee pretty bad.” Haney said that matched a story from Corey Carroll, one of Woods' closest friends at Isleworth who said Woods revealed to him that the complete tear of his left knee ligaments really happened in a 'Kill House' when he had lost his balance and been kicked in the knee Woods so badly wanted to be considered a real athlete that he saw injuries as a 'badge of honor' He said their second lesson was his first test as a coach. Woods had finished 10 shots behind at Bay Hill, and Haney met him on the range at Isleworth. He said Woods ignored him. The message Tiger wanted to send was clear: "when I play bad and don;t win - it's your fault ". He was reminding me that his expectations were going to be incredibly high Woods would finish his dinner at a restaurant — even when he was with his wife, Elin — he'd get up, leave without a word and expect everyone to follow, even if they were still eating. "When he was done — and he habitually ate fast — you were done," Haney recalls . But anyway, don't put me in that group - "I just enjoy the way he plays golf, I don't care about who he is off the field."

I'll for sure read it. I don't understand all the negative commotion. Haney is an opportunist: check. Woods is a jerk: check People are interested in hearing the stories: why not? Everything that's come out of this book so far is solid gold ! I don't get why people say they don't want to put money in Haney's pocket because he's a bad guy...out of respect for another bad guy?! 20 years from now, this book is going to be the reference-point for all things 'Tiger'. The kind of people who get upset at this are probably those who get reduced to tears and proclaim '"Hang your head in shame Steve Sands!!"

Quote: True...I don't have any proof whatsoever and you have no figures. But yeah, I agree the PGA Tour needs a healthy Tiger...not a shot Tiger who shows glimpses of brilliance amongst lacklustre rounds. That 62 definately raised everyone's interest again...until: Quote: Well, I don't think it's that silly as in 'it couldn't possibly be true' type-silly? As in 'he was practising his game all that time, being the loving husband and not boning every woman he laid eyes on'? As in 'sure, his injuries come directly from golf and not running in combat boots or parachuting and training with Navy SEALs?' Hard to really say isn't it? Based on what we now know. Regardless, it's one of two options: 1 - He's hurt much more than he admits and will miss significant time 2 - He felt some pain, and due to recent history of injuries, is being top-cautious But hold on, if it's #1, why would he be casually hopping into a cart, off into a car and then a day or two later, it's okay for him to be hitting balls a few days later and talking about playing golf? And if it's #2, you'd hope he won't play at the Tavistock Cup or even Bay Hill. I mean we need him to be fit for The Masters'.... right ? The plot thickens...

This is just another in the list of injuries he has sustained and most likely will continue to sustain and endure. It's the results of an individual or even combination of things: daily over use, over-training or just general wear-and-tear of the body breaking down from age. Depending on your view, it may also tie-in with the discontinued use of illegal substances used in professional sports. A lot of people will laugh or ignore this, a lot will agree with the fact that it is also consistant with professional athletes that have used certain drugs and procedures. (and continue to do so: Tennis, for example, is definately a sport newly under-the-microscope when it comes to PEDs and HGHs, re: Djokovic, Nadal, etc) With Woods, we cannot 100% rule it out as a possibility because of his association and subsequent documented treatment by a known Doctor that was recently convicted of not only possession of HGH & other illegal subatances but also illegal activity of this nature. And as far as Woods continued, resulting arrogance goes, quite honestly does anyone find anything he says big or small, believable now? Only fools or blind-fans would do so. He's a superb golfer, maybe the best we'll ever see and he has had a remarkable ride...but what he accomplished before has no relevance on what he will do tomorrow. There is an entire new group of golfers that have trained not only in the gym, but also what to do and what to say and how to act. If we are being totally honest, this perfectly captures how a much larger % of people feel about golf now, regardless of whether 'Tiger's still the Face of Golf' or 'No-one 'moves the needle' like Tiger still'. Fact is, I think all the answers all there and people just don't want to believe what they see. We've seen the rise and fall of enough mega-athletes yet to know how these stories go. And we all know how the story's going to end in this one...

But here we go again, just because I'm posting something objectively, and it doesn't fit in with what little world the fanboys (you excluded, as per pas debate) want to hear. I've said it before in another thread - I don't know why I'm branded as 'hater' when in reality I'm the exact opposite. The you're as naive as Woods to think this. It comes with the territory of being such a high-profiler as Woods. People have a hard time saying no to fame and fortune, even if it's only for 15 minutes. Tiger should know that. Just shrug it off and think "it's business". Don't you think there is also the distinct possiblity that there was no confidentially-clause in place? I finf it hard to believe. Woods and his people should have done a better job and predicting this outcome and should have had non-disclose contracts in place. See #2 I think what the Woods iis upset about is that he entrusted HH as a friend and Im guessing Woods has personally read 'outtakes' or heard solid that he is not happy about. To me it sounds like HH broke a little bit of the "guy code". HH probably mentions a few things that Woods thought HH would take to his grave and keep between them Based on my observations, the more money a person has or if there is an opportunity to make money off of a person, the less loyalty they inspire. The only reason you don't see more tell all books about Madonna and Michael Jordan is because everyone from the assistant to the cooks are under confidentiality agreements. And yet, after November 2009, what else is there that could possibly get Haney to the summit of 'Mount Classless'? Because in this repsect, Woods is Edmund Hilary. Yeah, we do. We do? What, like the SOCOM-4 thing? One of the reasons I suspect Woods, and by default, his fanbase, always get so worked up about things like a traitorous-tell-all book by a former friend, is that he has multiple things still to hide. You typically don't see people lose it like Woods does in these situations unless there is some deep seeded paranoia around dark secrets that could come out. In the end, I think this book will be more of a compliment to Woods than anything. HH appreciates the time they spent together and wants to document some of it, no big deal.

Quote: Well, the vilification of Haney is expected I suppose, but where is the criticism of Woods? He has surrounded himself over the years with the worst possible group: a plethora of *****s, chatty coaches, antagonist caddies, etc. etc. Sure, attack at will at Haney, but at least let's have some balance and admit Woods is an fool when it comes to selecting people he lets in his inner circle. Because this eventually leads into...broken relationships. Coaches, caddies, wife, floozies, sooner or later everyone ends up in some kind of dispute with him. I think the haney book will also show he inspires no loyalty from anyone spent around him. What's weird about this entire book debacle is Woods implying that his experiences with anyone are exclusive to himself!? Megalomoniac much? And why with the fanatical Woods fan is it that there is such an instinctive fearful reaction to anything that might come out about Woods that he doesn't have final say on? Maybe you could say that while working with Woods, HH had the most successful run of any golf coach in history - why not share it? Perhaps he is going to get into what was the most important change made to achieve that, or break down how lessons were structured, maybe even pass on some things he learned from Woods? Any 'fan' of 'The G.O.A.T' should be frothing at the mouth with the fact that the book might offer some insight to Woods routines and habits that helped him get there.