mad max

No[quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/67379/poll-ob-lost-ball-vs-hazard-unplayable-lie-penalties/60#post_851049"] A ball in an unplayable lie through the green is also a ball you can't play. Should a player be required to take a stroke and distance penalty just because his ball rolled a couple of feet too far and got into some tree roots? The ball in the hazard still has the potential to be playable if it isn't under 12 inches of water, while the ball out of bounds does not. Again, a difference which is fundamental to the treatment of the two situations. [/quote] no but their are a separate set Rules that govern this situation for one you found your ball, if you take unplayable you only get 2 club lengths to give yourself a shot. So you didn't hit the ball way off where you were supposed to. Please don't introduce unplayable's into this discussion you will just confuse me.

Fourputt, Just to be clear I have no problem with O.B., lost ball being stroke and distance, but I feel if the ball is lost wherever it is lost the penalty should be the same. I don't think we would have as many complaints about the O.B./lost ball rule if their was no LWH, but I trust you and your knowledge of the rules so I will listen to what you have to say regarding the matter.

My thinking is if the ball is in play but covered by 12' of water for all intent and purpose it is not a ball you can play. It should be treated the same as a ball that is not in play.

Why? If I hit the ball 250 yards into a lake how is that a better shot than one that goes 250 yards that ends up off the course or in a spot designated as being off the course on a certain hole. You can't play either. How is a shot that is way offline that definitely enters a LWH better than a shot that is close to a LWH that you can't find but you are not virtually certain it entered the LWH. How about a shot that goes into the rough that you can't find? Is that a worse shot than one that goes over a cliff on the edge of the ocean? I know that I am changing what MEfree meant when he started this poll, I think he wanted to make all three only stroke penalties not stroke and distance penalties. The poll does say should they be the same though and I think they should. The more I think about this the more I think that the problem lies with rules governing red stakes or LWH. If it wasn't for that rule you wouldn't have so many people think that stroke and distance is a draconian penalty. You wouldn't think "wow that is harsh, if I had only hit into red stakes I would still get to keep some of the distance." Getting to keep the distance wouldn't even enter your head, you would just know and accept "if you lose your ball you go back and hit again from where you played your last shot." That is easy enough to understand and it would remove the uncertainty of where you ball crossed the stakes. Whether you are virtually certain the ball did enter the LWH ecetra. I can't think of a rule that comes into play as much as LWH does that is so open to interpretation. Maybe because I mostly play with players that are as bad as I am but a ball usually enters a LWH several time a round playing with four people. I bet if we had each player decide where to drop on their own we would get four different locations. Sometimes we would also get differing opinions about whether their was virtual certainty that the ball did end up in a LWH. for that reason alone I think the rule is problematic. Even pros have trouble with this, look at Tiger's drop at the players. If Tiger Woods leading a tournament on Sunday as prestigious as the Players can make a possibly incorrect determination in front of hundreds to thousands of spectators with aerial television replays while being watched by millions of people and no one can say definitively that it was a good drop or a bad drop there is something wrong with the rule. I say get rid of red stakes or LWH, if you can find it you can play it, if not go back to your last shot and take your penalty.

I agree, I think this poll might have more support if MEfree ditched the lost ball portion of it. I also find that dropping after going into red stakes is abused frequently by players that try to play by the rules. They tend to drop at a distance where a good drive would have gone and they always have a clear shot. I do the clear shot thing too . I do support making the penalty for hitting o.b similar to a hazard but, I would be fine with making them both stroke and distance penalty's. It doesn't seem right to me because a course chooses to mark an area that you should not hit into with white sticks instead of red sticks you should have effectively double the penalty. This thread has me thinking, maybe the problem is not the O.B./lost ball rule but the rule that covers LWH. You hit the ball in a lake or the ocean, that ball is lost for all intent and purpose in the game of golf. If you find your ball in a LWH you can play it if you can, or you can take an unplayable, if none of those work go back to the spot of your last shot. Most golfers I have played with (myself included) treat any shot that they hit close to a LWH as a ball that went into the LWH if they can not find the ball. I know the rules say virtually certain but what does virtually certain mean? I would start a new poll or thread but I don't want to get into trouble.

Replying to the bolded parts. I have lost balls that I thought went down the middle of the fairway. Do you suggest I plop one down right at the 150 to go mark and call that good? Yes taking one penalty stoke is enough deterrent that if you hit your ball down the middle and see it bounce a couple times but for whatever reason you can't find the ball the one penalty stroke more than compensates for you possibly being a few yards closer of having a better lie than you would if you found your original. Since this has happened to you what do you do in this situation? Do you go back to where your original ball was after 5 mins of looking? I know what I do and I know it is not within the rules but I take a two stroke penalty and play the ball where I think it should be. The same applies for O.B. Where are you going to drop. Where you think that it crossed the out of bounds plane? Good luck deciding where that happened. But this is exactly what we do when we hit a ball in a lateral water hazard and are not able to find it.

I thought this was referring to lateral water hazards where you can't drop behind the hazard. If you thought your ball crossed the hazard 10 yards farther up then it did, I could make the argument that you played your ball 10 yards closer to the hole than you should have. Correct me if I am wrong but I think the decision basically says if the player is acting in good faith there is no penalty.

Thanks, just so I am clear if this mistake was noticed before hitting the next shot 20.6 would apply and if it was after 20.7 would 20-6 . Lifting Ball Incorrectly Substituted, Dropped Or Placed A ball incorrectly substituted , dropped or placed in a wrong place or otherwise not in accordance with the Rules but not played may be lifted, without penalty, and the player must then proceed correctly. 20-7 . Playing From Wrong Place a . General A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball in play : (i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be made or a ball to be dropped or placed; or (ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced. Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground – see Rule 11-4 . c . Stroke Play If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule . He must play out the hole with the ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1). If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before making a stroke on the next teeing ground , play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules . If the hole being played is the last hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green , that he will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the Rules . If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so, he is disqualified . The Committee must determine whether the competitor has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule . If he has, the score with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified .

This is as close as I can find. Q. A player assumes his original ball to be in a water hazard, despite the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Using the option in Rule 26-1a , he plays another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. He then finds his original ball outside the hazard. What is the ruling? A. The original ball is lost and the other ball is in play under penalty of stroke and distance - see Rule 27-1a and the Definition of "Lost Ball." (Revised)

Just to play devil advocate what happens if this occurs when you think your ball entered a lateral water hazard.

I don't know about you but where I am from course's sometimes put O.B. in the middle of the course because of space limitations or a design flaw.

I agree 100% about O.B should be played as ESA. I think this is a great idea. I don't understand the thought procces that O.B. should be more penal than a water hazard. I can see a lake or the ocean and know that I don't want to hit my ball in that direction, but when playing a new course I don't always know that there are these little white stakes, sometimes put there by the course that have no obvious reason from the tee. Even if you know the course why should the color of the stakes change the way you play the hole. I.E. they are red on the left and white on the right so I would rather be left than right.

Thanks, Fourputt So if this ever happens to me I should use all my anger/aggression from missing an ace and get that ball out of the hole ASAP. Thanks again, you pretend not to know the rules perfectly but when you reply confidently, you are always right.

What are your suggestions? I have a few minor ones that I think would not affect scores much but would be simpler and improve pace of play. 1 A player may elect to have the flag removed, tended, or left in at any time. 2 There is only way to drop. It is a set distance (maybe the length of a 45 inch driver or whatever but it doesn't matter if you only carry irons or if you have a 55 inch putter you get the same relief.) All drops weather penalty drops or relief drops are treated the same. 3 No more relief if your feet are on a cart path, only if the cart path could affect your club contacting the ball. I know if I get to my ball and see that my feet will be on the path I look to see if I have a good lie and if I have a clear shot, if I don't I will l see where my nearest point of relief would be and then decide what would be most advantageous to me. I also think now that almost everyone uses soft spikes that most golfers can attempt a decent swing even if they are standing on the path. This one is more controversial but I it is one that I like. 4 If a players ball moves they must replace it before playing their next shot. No more what is addressing the ball,l did the player deemed to have caused the ball to move, did an outside agency cause the ball to move. I know many will not agree with me but if they can give me a good argument as to why these changes would fundamentally change the game I will listen.

Just out of curiosity if the player hits his provisional in the hole can he immediately declare his fist lost? If not, does the opponent get a full 5 minutes to look for the original ball?

I went the opposite. Awhile back I shot an 83 and then followed that up with a 112 at the same course four days latter

Yeah or wait for another empty group and invite them to join you.

Well I guess because she is not a he the rules don't apply. I am just joking but I can't believe that in the golf decisions where they are so technical that they failed to make the ruling so it applies to both genders is pretty bad. It might contribute to the stereotype that golf is for rich old white guys. I am not a rabid ERA guy but this pretty is bad. For the record I am a white guy but not rich nor do I consider myself old.

I would call the course. I know of some courses that won't allow it because of liability issues. You would have a better chance if you went at a time when the course was less busy. Are you going to play 9 or 18? If it is her first time I would recommend only doing 9. She will be more likely to enjoy and not get bored in 2 hours then 4 or 5. If she has a good time you could try 18 but if if you do 18 to start and she gets tiered of it after 2 or 3 hours chances are you will never get her back out.

I think you have to be honest with yourself. Do you typically turn down bookings because you are booked up. Are you going to be at the practice facility anyway. If it doesn't affect you most of the time and you want to gain customers I wouldn't charge. I definitely wouldn't charge a longtime customer unless you have warned them and it becomes a habit.

Another point that I don't believe has been mention is if the course after construction wants to charge $50 it does make sense to slowly raise the rates so regular and semi regular customers don't have a fit. If I went to a course and I had to pay double what I was expecting I might leave or be very critical about how it wasn't twice as good as it was before but for an extra $9 or $16 I would go ahead and play and see what it was like.

You are right I have been working on my form and now I will sometimes hit a 8 from 140.

Wow this is a blast from the past. Thanks to everyone that responded even though many of you are long gone by now. Update on what I did. I just used regular 5 min epoxy because that is what I had. I like to use the stuff that comes in 2 separate tubes rather than the plunger type because I can better control the amount that I mix together. I can make sure the amounts are equal. Four years later the club is still together. I haven't tried to take it apart but I have no plans to do so. I also bought some new clubs on eBay and at the end of the description the seller stated that he had a set of Bridgestone iron heads along with a set of DG shafts that came with the clubs I actual wanted so I glued those up as well using the same method. They haven't had much use, maybe 3 rounds and few trips to the range but about two years later they still seem fine. I think I did a fair job of sanding the shaft and inside the hosel though.

I think you are that guy. Never, never give advice to someone unless they give you an opening. The way you described the first scenario the woman or (hacking chick) didn't want your advice. You should just accept that and play your round not glare back at her when you do something good. She had every right to let you know that she did not want any more advice. How would you feel if after you thinned your ball O.B. she told you "you know you should try and hit about 1" behind the ball in the sand." If it was me it would piss me off more than I was already. I know that. I was thinking I had a shot at birdie and now I have to hole the ball from the sand just to make par. Sorry if I came of harsh or rude but my mother played for 20+ years and would constantly get swing advice from strangers. I shoot about the same scores as her but have never gotten unsolicited advice even though I am sure a few good tips could make me better at the short game and putting, but I don't think any tip could help my mother drive the ball 200. It was also usually the foot wedge guy, or the guy that drops his ball 30 yards past his longest drive of the day when he can't find the ball that was quickest to give advice.

If you shoot around 97-110 you are not a bad golfer you are about average. The sales people at a golf store will not look down upon you at all, I think 80% of their sales come from people of your skill level. You could try a fitting from Ping on their website, it won't be as good as a true fitting but it is a starting point. I would also check the actual lengths of your clubs. Just because they were sold to you as 1.5" longer doesn't mean that they are 1.5" longer than the standard length in the U.S. or wherever you are from. I my father's friend bought some knock off Callaways from China that were supposed to be standard and the length of his 6i was 1" shorter then everyone else's 6i. This was about 10 year's ago so it might be a similar case. What I would do if I was in your position is try to find a driving range around you that also sells clubs. Try a few out and see what you like, bring your own clubs to compare. If you have an instructor that you trust you could also ask their advice. I wouldn't buy anything on the initial trip, go back on a different day and see if your initial impressions hold true the second time. I also wouldn't buy a brand new set. I would try buying a used set that is not the current model, but from the same family as the clubs you liked best from the driving range. You could buy these from a place like e-bay. If you do buy from e-bay don't spend too much, I would look at a iron set in the $200 to $300 range. Look at the sellers rating if they have many sales and not too many complaints you should be good.