dsc123
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Everything posted by dsc123
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TST East Coast Get-Together (w/AimPoint), May 5-7 2017
dsc123 replied to GolfLug's topic in Member Outings & Meetups
I'm 50/50 for golf Saturday. I'll pass on the clinics. -
Pelz explained his study in either his putting or short game book. And in an article on golf.com.
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Well some would. That's Erik's main point, I think. Personally, I could go either way.
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Yeah, you'd definitely need to spread the word. But I think Pros would adapt quickly and you'd hear announcers and everyone talking about it. I think word would spread fast. But you never know. And I definitely agree that the pull/replace dance is worse.
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I agree with Asheville re brevity. Also, I wonder if there's a bit of an inconsistency in arguing that the flagstick is almost universally beneficial to the putter and at the same time that you argue the new rule will slow play. Once players get this, won't they leave it in nearly all of the time? They would ONLY go through the pull/replace dance if the flag is leaning towards one of the players. And the Pelz article I found says a lean is helpful regardless of the direction, unless its so extreme that your ball won't fit:
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It strikes me as a bit strange that courses purport to set rules anyway. What authority do they have to tell me how to count my score? Most people out there probably don't play by the rules anyway (and that's fine). But they'll definitely start lateral hazarding trees.
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I bet a lot of courses will do that, since the rules are largely intended to speed up the pace of play.
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That's not what anyone was talking about. But I'm not going to summarize the progress of the discussion to explain that. Same goes for the other responses.
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I was talking about the unexpectedly lost ball. As I mentioned before, of course everyone should always play a provisional when they think the ball is lost. And the penalty needs to be such that players would have the incentive to do so. I'm not sure about the wrong ball scenario. What is the current rule? Replay from the spot where you last hit your own ball with a 2 stroke penalty? In your scenario I don't know how you'd enforce that either without knowing when you made the mistake. Well, again, I'm talking about the unexpectedly lost ball. So if you last saw it flying towards a thick stand of trees, then its not unexpected that its lost and you hit a provisional. But sure, the cavalier player who sees his ball heading towards trouble and is nevertheless certain it is not lost and doesn't hit a provisional. That guy drop it where he last saw it. So in your scenario where you see the ball "flying towards" the trees, did the player see it go in the trees then disappear? If so, he drops in the trees with a 2 stroke penalty. Or did he last see it land short of the trees and think it stopped? If so, he drops there, with a 2 stroke penalty. I suppose the "flaw" is that if you hit a terrific tee shot but can't find it, you might prefer to lie 3 from that spot than hit again. So sure, its not perfect, but I don't know anyone who would hit what they think is a great shot and be happy to have it count as 3. But this is just one idea. Perhaps some "reasonably certain" analysis as in the hazard rules could help. I'm not claiming to have the perfect rule. I just think there is likely to be a possible fair solution short of walking back to the tee. No, you'd hit a provisional just as you would now. The scenario you propose works no better under the current rule. Do you just hit provisional after provisional until you're able to see the ball come to a rest, then go looking for all your balls to see if you can find your first, second, or third? I would probably write it such that the ball is played where it is last seen. So your opponent can tell you where they last saw it. We're emphasizing the trust in your opponent anyway.
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I'll give you: "Hence, both OB and lost balls should be treated similarly." But I'd still like the walk back out of the rules. I don't think players ever should be put in the position of having to choose between a significant delay of game for everyone or following the rules. Especially in the case of the unexpectedly lost ball. Its already a kick in the groin.
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Well that's the question. The penalty has to eliminate the possibility that the player is better off taking a drop than provisional. Perhaps a drop where the ball was last seen (not where you think it would have come to rest), with a 2 stroke penalty. If you hit it into the rough, you're dropping in the rough--not within 80 inches of the rough--with 2 strokes. Its not perfect. But I'm not sure that spot is any less certain than trying to gauge whether a ball 200 yards away, in the air, moving at 75mph on a curving path crossed an invisible OB line. Particularly from the vantage point of the tee,which is the one of the hardest places from which to make that judgment.
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Sure, and I hit a provisional anytime I think the ball might be lost. Everyone should. But I think its not uncommon to unexpectedly lose a ball. Especially on courses with blind shots. Thick rough, bad bounces, poor eye sight, golf ball scavengers, aliens, etc.
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I would like to see a 2 stroke penalty for OB or lost ball. The walk back to the tee should be completely eliminated from the game. The only reason why you don't see it happen more often is because people apply a rule like this or just take a free drop all the time. You do make a good point about why OB is different than lost. But I think that's better solved by a more creative rule than rehitting.
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I've never met someone who said they don't play golf because of the rules. Cost, time, difficulty of hitting a ball straight, sure. But those people never get far enough to be bothered by the rules.
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Even if a double hit gave you a better shot, its not going to give you a good shot. And the result is so random. We're talking about a fatted chip shot that would have gone 3 feet forward and stopped, instead maybe going further but in some random direction?
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I think they did a terrific job. I don't think the problem is that the rules make the game too difficult. Instead I think there were three problems that are addressed there: 1) legalese; 2) too many different rules for different circumstances; 3) unnecessarily penal rules (i.e., penalties for mistakes that are innocent and didn't give you an advantage). The new rules don't completely eliminate these problems, but they help. And they do so without changing the nature of the game.
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That's a good point. It wouldn't always be the case that you're in a bad spot, but with a properly drawn area, it should be true most of the time.
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1.5 shots compared to a good tee shot. If you rarely hit a good tee shot, its less. I have a group of friends that get together twice a year to golf and they're terrible. I spot them between 9 and 25 shots. The first time I lost it was because I let them play the trees like a lateral and it changed everything. Gone were the 1-2 holes where they pump 2-3 tee shots into the woods. They just try to bomb it. If it goes into the woods, they're basically lying even with me (net).
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I guess this comes into play in two scenarios: 1) found ball in trees; 2) lost ball in trees. If you find your ball and you have a clean out, you'll probably still punch it out, because you can make it run further. If you find it and you don't have a clean out, you'll take the drop because its advantageous. But if the ball is lost, you're lying 2 from somewhere up the fairway instead of lying 2 on the tee.
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I'm sure you're right. It'll just be kind of frustrating when I hit one into the trees, can't find it, really want to play it as a lateral, and now know that the rules may soon allow it.....but not today.
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I would prefer it to be a 2 stroke penalty, but I agree as far as the pace of play is concerned. That's what I do when I don't want to drive back.
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Are we allowed to adopt some of these rules in our current play, and still report the rounds for handicap purposes?
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I was playing a nice course in MA--Blackstone National--when the ranger yelled at us for hitting provisionals. He said all the tree lines were lateral hazards and rehitting was needlessly wasting time.
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I think a lot of courses will be quick to mark wooded areas as lateral hazards. I'm not sure if that's a positive development.
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I'd prefer to see a minimum distance for the drop because, as @DaveP043 said, you're basically placing the ball. If the goal is to maintain some randomness but also decrease the randomness, why not go with knee or waist?
