broomhandle

The tradeoff is already figured in the driver down to 5-wood. Thanks for the input.

Quote: Originally Posted by dave67az Thing is, it's stories like these (below) that automatically raise suspicion and certainly give the impression that the putters are an "instant fix" (or pretty close to it) and if that's the case, and if they level the playing field to the extent that they can turn a bad putter on the Tour into an average putter and thus win tournaments that some may say weren't "earned", then we shouldn't be at all surprised that the R&A; and USGA decided to examine a serious ban on their use. Obviously with any putter practice would still be necessary because you still have to be able to read the break and speed of the putt, but if it's, in fact, more difficult to use an anchored putter then what is your theory about why they're becoming popular? I can't think of a single piece of golf equipment in the past that tried to sell itself on being more difficult or giving absolutely no benefit to your game. In 15 minutes of searching, here are a few testimonials from pros who seem to disagree with the opinion that they're not an instant cure. - Dave ---------- (Adam) Scott freely admits he frowned upon players who used long putters until his putting became so “ atrocious ” earlier this year that he tried the broomstick putter “ as a last resort .” Since then, the Australian’s had his best finish at a major - tied for second at the Masters - and won the prestigious Bridgestone Invitational. http://msn.foxsports.com/golf/story/USGA-needs-to-address-long-putters-082211 ---------- "I'm enjoying it. The more I've spent time with it, the more I'm enjoying it,'' Mickelson said. "I'm not giving shots away on short putts anymore. But again, I've only used it a couple weeks . It's not like I'm sold on it. But it's helped me not throw too many shots away around the greens. I feel like I'm putting short ones a lot better and starting to make some more mid-range. '' http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage ---------- "I switched so long ago, it was my first semester at Wake [Forest],'' Simpson said. "Actually it was kind of a joke why I tried it. I went to the pro shop and I was with my dad and I was kind of making fun of the belly putter, and I thought, I just have to make a couple putts with this. " I went on the green, made a few long ones and thought, this is pretty good. So I took it out on the course for nine holes and made everything . I knew I was going to get made fun of by my teammates, but took it back to Wake. I used it, one of my teammates, two years older than me, he was making fun of me for using it, which I knew he would, but he saw me putt with it and he went out and got the same exact putter and won his first college event two weeks later ." http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/6997578/do-long-belly-putters-give-golfers-advantage ---------- The Long Putter - Peter Senior I first used a long putter back in 1989 in the British Masters at Woburn. After a first round 74, which included 38 putts with a regular putter, I found myself on the putting green with Sam Torrance, and he let me try one of the very first models that he had been tinkering about with. It wasn't a pretty thing, but after a few minutes it seemed to work, so I decided to give it a go. The next day I shot a 66, and the long putter has been in my bag ever since . http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/long_putter.html I never said harder to use I said there is usually a transition period that most people won't work through. You may have shown some exceptions.How do we count how many tried and didn't have a success story? If it didn't at least seem to work better then nobody would be doing it. At the other extreme if it was an instant fix nobody would ever try it and go back. Scott is still choking short putts. One of his friends said Adam doesn't putt better with the broomhandle he just thinks he does. He's a fantastic young golfer and is going to win some and show 'success' if he can putt even mediocre. Mickelson GAVE UP and went back to short. Not much evidence for an instant fix in either of those stories. Simpson was young and went belly which is certainly the most likely scenario to putt at least as well right away. I think it's most likely for people with a certain style with the short putter. The story mentioned no particular putting problems he had and as a freshman at a d1 powerhouse he was obviously identified as someone extremely likely to improve before he had even tried the belly. Not much evidence he 'fixed' anything. The Senior story is absolutely amazing if literally true. I still wonder if there is a 'well I had messed about with it for a week' postscript. It looks to me that the stroke he is demonstrating is unanchored but there is no definitive picture. See enforcement post :) Sam Torrance says he(Sam) stopped anchoring on his own. If there is a fix here it may not be from anchoring! Here's a quote from Senior with a different tone: Quote: “All of a sudden everybody was on to me,” Senior said to Vartan in his article on PGA.tour.com “They were saying it should be banned, it’s cheating, all this sort of stuff. But I’ve putted badly with it as well. There’s no recipe for good putting. You’ve still got to work out the line. You’ve got to hit it well.”

I agree. I'm on that side. But I'm also wondering if some of the pro-ban arguments are even technically correct.

My experience is very much the opposite. EVERYBODY I've let stroke a few with my broomhandles has said 'I don't know how you can use that thing.' When I bought my first one I can still remember the sales girl saying "Good luck with this, we've all tried it and we stink'. You have to either be desperate enough or just like new challenges enough to work through a transition. Most of the stories I've heard about bellies are similar. It's a lot more difficult to learn to use a long putter than to complain that other people shouldn't be allowed to. They might help with mental issues but far, far from eliminating them. I turned on the British Open 4th round very early and watched Adam Scott practice putting for at least an hour. Then he badly botched a short putt for par on the first hole and putted like crap all day.. For about 70 holes the announcers were saying if Els was making anything he'd be leading. He won in spite of finishing about 70 of 80 in putting. The one he dropped on the 72 was the kind you only hope to make. The really mental ones are the short ones you think you should always make. Just yesterday I saw an internet article saying he won because the belly putter let him make the winning putt. Kite and Singh are legendary practicers. No way they're going long putter to avoid hard work. I don't think there is any pro who went to the long putter in desperation without first putting in enough hard work to believe no amount of work was going to fix the issues.The kids like Bradley are a whole different case. They actually took a risk going to what is still a minority technique very early. What you're asking is the opposite of what you want to be asking. Let's protect the naturals who pick up a short putter, putt well right away and never get the yips from the plodders who are willing to try anything and everything, working and working until they putt somewhere close to as well as the naturals and have a chance to beat them from tee to green.

Could you describe your method of using the belly putter? What's different than the short putter and what is the same?

Thanks. I'm voting for Garrigus 'cause he plays with only 11 clubs! I guess it's better to leave 3 out than throw in some TMs he doesn't really use. btw, I like TM just fine, I just laughed at the marketing decision there.

Oh, another thing hat has been proposed here is that the hands must touch each other. That would take the 48" putter away from me altogether. There could be a scenario where I go from an un-anchored long putter to a short putter with my forearm anchored on my belly.

That complies with Dave's proposed rule of club and hand to wrist can't touch body. Some people here have proposed that the forearm shouldn't touch the upper body either. I can even handle that but it sounds like you can't(yet). I think a forearm rule would create HUGE problems with judgement of legality and affect many strokes it wasn't meant to if applied objectively. If they go the other way and stick to a 'club cant touch body' only rule then the belly guys are dead but you and I are unaffected. Sounds like you use the original 'right arm only' method and not the shoulder rock that Scott,Clark,Petterson,etc use. The r&a; guy whose name I should remember but don't made one statement that focused on 'anchoring' AND 'pivoting'. If they go a 'pivot ban' route your stroke could be illegal regardless of what you do with your left arm. 1. They deliberately left the broomstick in the game once already. 2. The current hysteria is focused around mostly belly putter success and growth. 3. They've said repeatedly they want to ban a method and not length of putter. You and I should be ok but I still half-expect to get ****ed.

thanks, are you vouching for the safety of ordering from that particular link? I'm looking for a club to AVOID punching out!!!!!! :)

22 wouldn't be enough club for me. 19 probably borderline. I'd prefer something that goes as far as my 19* 5-wood

No reason why not. Just thinking a specialty chicken stick might be inherently more accurate. I carry 3w 5w 7w 9w(27*) 5-iron I like the high trajectory and ease from poor lies. Off a tee with nothing to carry I'm fine with a 1 iron At least I was the last time I hit one 20 years ago. I don't think my swing speed has dropped much yet but at 52 it may drop soon

If you've got the bug and have high hopes you should probably at least consider going with forged 'players' wedges like Vokey's or similar. I've never been a big hitter or great player and I've always thought game improvement 5-irons are great but game improvement wedges are rather pointless. Others will be along with more expert opinions than mine on particular clubs.

Not a lot. I just spray it around a bit too widely for comfort in those situations with penalty strokes lurking on both sides. I'm extremely conservative on course and just hate not having a safe shot. Getting better with what I've got may well be the best path. I'm just fishing for options.

Your two questions balance each other. the better you get at partial swings the larger the gaps you can live with. Technique is cheaper! I would think you're overdue to experiment with choking, 1/2-3/4 swings and just swinging easier/harder and see what you can make work the best. 45,50,55,60 would sound awfully good to me if you can arrange it. fwliw I do 48 54 60 and find the gaps are manageable but pushing it. About 100,80,60 for me. If you have particular hopes of hitting farther as you get better the gaps only get bigger.

I hit my 5-wood about 200. I'm thinking about what club would be the best to use to get about that distance or a little better off the tee with trouble on both sides. Doesn't have to be useful for any other situation - I'll make room for an 'entire club' for the purpose. shortened 460cc driver? thriver? 2 hybrid? sgi long iron? some specialty 'driving iron'? I was thinking about a muscle back long iron with the idea that if i mishit it it may stay short of trouble compared to a high moi club. Crazy? Think this club should be high loft or low? I can imagine some advantage either way. Nothing is enough better than just hitting the 5 or 3-wood to justify a specialty club?

I'm currently using an unanchored long putter. Left arm touching nothing. so does my avatar, Tom Kite I despise the probable anchor ban and what it will do to the belly guys but I think I'll personally probably be ok with the broomhandle unless they get REALLY extreme or if the enforcement is worse than the rule.

Ok, now how about plans for enforcement? Assume a 'club nor hand can touch body' rule. I guess this would be like most rules and it would be supposed that I would call a penalty on myself if I violated it. If an official saw me in violation w/o calling it on myself I'd be penalized and/or dq-ed. Technically a 1mm gap between hand and body would be legal. Who judges that tiny margin on every putt? Would it be my responsibility to show clear compliance or an officials responsibility to show clear violation? Since the spirit of the change is to ban anchoring an unanchored stroke that incidentally brushes the body at some one point should still be legal, right? I'm happy putting with my left thumb 1-2" from my chest. I'm well within the spirit of the new rule and with a tight t-shirt clearly within the letter Even 1 baggy shirt can touch my left hand though. With the oversize windbreaker I like to wear it would be extremely difficult to avoid the jacket obscuring the hand-chest gap completely. I'm honestly not trying to be silly but it seems like I could end up in a position of having to golf in snug clothes.(only if I played a usga event, of course) A fat person would have to keep his hand further from the center of his body than a skinny person. Discrimination :) Is this worth it for the alleged benefit? One thing I'd bet all I have will happen is that when an anchor ban goes in and I'm using an unanchored broomhandle some people are going to come up to me and tell me I should stop using that putter because it was banned. Probably somebody will do it between the announcement and the effective date! I'll enjoy the arguments but that situation will probably really bother some long-putter users.

A thought I have had myself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fourputt It's only of any use at all if the slope is consistent all the way to the hole. And it's very difficult for most to stand as required on a subtle slope, so they are just about as likely to get a false read anyway. Setting aside the authoritative bluster in several posts these are the REAL problems in spite of the basic principle being perfectly sound. You can apply the method multiple times but you have to first have a good idea that there are multiple slopes. Most people just look at the line 2-dimensionally put up the plumb and say 'I'm getting nothing'. Yep, do anything wrong and it doesn't work. You have to start with a proper 3-dimensional look which can be close to the same thing as reading the putt without the plumb. IF you built a mechanical device that applied the principle correctly every time it would read every single slope putt correctly. Quote: I've watched a lot of guys plumb bob and never seen one read a green any better than those of us who don't, myself included. I'm not looking for better. I'd be thrilled with as well. Many times I've had no idea just looking but got a decent read from the plumb bob.

I started broomhandling in about 1989. Back then the USGA looked at long putting and slightly to my surprise left it legal. Imagine my joy when returning to the game after 10 years off and 1 week after buying a new 170$ putter I learned they were (again) considering a ban of long putter technique. I started experimenting with techniques which I think have a decent chance of surviving an 'anchor' ban. I'm trying shoulder rock pendulum and 'butt pivot' methods both with the left arm completely free of the body. I'm putting better than ever. That's not saying a whole lot but it is pleasant. I'm theorizing that there is a slight advantage in the shoulder rock technique because rather than anchoring I line the shaft up pointed right at the pivot point between my shoulders. That makes it more natural to maintain 1 solid giant lever as a pendulum. In the butt pivot technique I think the free arm makes it easier to create a pivot which is exactly on line with the desired stroke. It also seems to be a better, more symmetrical balance with the elbow-out right arm action. So what? Not much but I thought somebody might be interested in my preliminary experimental results.

I think importance of grip depends on swing style. I'm normally a hands and arm oriented player and grip, especially right hand is hyper-critical. When I try to make a more body oriented swing I find that grip is not so important. I believe I see the same tendency in writer/instructors. The handsier the swing recommended the more grip is stressed.

Nice research work. I've been on a lot of forums on a lot of subjects and it's amazingly rare to see somebody who actually wants to learn more about a contentious issue rather than just state their own opinion. btw - your proposed rule was very similar to mine from many pages back. Mine was from the perspective of the best I could hope for rather than what I'd most like to see, though. Quote: I hear ya. If you were at Dover I'm assuming you either worked on the big transports or were a loadmaster? Nah, I was REMF to the nth degree. I worked on the AC and Refr that supported those guys. Darn close to being a civilian in fatigues most of the time. Technically I was on a rapid response team for runway repair, decon and such but we had like 2 exercises and no deployments.

That's all well and good. I call it diabolically sadistic when they make you challenge OB to have a reasonable chance at par.

USAF Dover AFB 78-82 myself. Weirdest week of my life was on 'admin hold' or whatever they called it between graduating basic and actually getting shipped out of Lackland.

I've been using 'the ra/usga' very sloppily to mean the very few executives or committee members with real power to change things. The actual usga is a wide membership of thousands(millions?) I'm sure there is some sort of charter or constitution that establishes that the officials have responsibilities to represent the best interest of the membership as a whole and the members have rights to expect that. I expect the officials are elected. Non-usga golfers have little reason to care what the usga rules are. eg. In my company golf league we had a written rule that improving the lie in the fairway with the clubhead was ok but putting your hand on the ball was not. Our handicaps were computed by the secretary with his own primitive algorithm. The usga officials obligation to the membership surely includes a decent explanation of why rule changes are good for 'the game'/the membership. This reminds me that if I want to b*tch I probably should join.