RadarNinja

Caddies know their players, pretty silly analogy. This thread, apparently, is about playing vicariously through someone else. I just don't understand the logic of analyzing strategy when it doesn't apply to your own game. I certainly know how I would approach that situation, but can't speak for anyone else... Risk/ reward might mean something different to different people.

It's no different than soliciting advice from a playing partner who hits the ball 30 yds shorter than me on what club to pull off the tee... Although well intentioned,it's almost never correct ( for my game) .

But you don't know anything about that players skill level. That's why I said lay up to that players comfortable yardage( assuming they have one) regardless if its 100 or 20 yds. No one can speak to how a different player should strategize a hole. But very few players get home from that distance, and most posts suggest playing cuts/ draws whatever and going for it. If score is the goal, going for it isn't yielding the lowest score for the amateurs, although a bit over optimistic, who post on this site.

I understand the question fine... A lot of responses were a bit unrealistic IMO. I guarantee that the stats would show a lower scoring average if most ams laid up. 235 is low % unless your advanced

But you see 10 cappers hitting 235 cuts at will into the wind.... Lol

Yea... Statistically most if not all of you low double/ high single digit caps are going to miss the green from 235 anyway. There's no ideal play, as Hacket put it, very dependent on your individual skill level. I bet the scoring average on the hole would be significantly lower if most put away the 3-wood/ hybrids and laid up to a comfy wedge distance. I see a lot of thinned/ topped/ swipey fairway woods ending up in bad shape....

Yep, problem is terms like 'closed' and 'open' are too vague. A proper draw is hit with a face closed to your path but still open to the target. If everything used target as a reference point a lot of misconceptions like terms 'push draw' or 'pull fade' would be cleared up. Instead body orientation gets thrown into the mix which adds to and creates confusion.

Simple answer.... Point the club face at address where you want the ball to start and swing right of that to create the draw effect. How you achieve ' swinging right' depends on you, but can be achieved fairly easy by aiming your feet, hips and shoulders that direction. This method will feel like your face is just slightly closed to your stance,but still right of the target. Make a normal swing and you don't need any hand rotation/ manipulation to get the ball starting right and drawing back at the target.

Plenty of good players have a hard time keeping a perfectly straight left arm at the top so it's not really a big deal if your wrist angles don't break down in transition. Often swings that get too long lead to throw away and casting from the top. A shorter compact swing can make it easier to consistently deliver the sweet spot to the ball.

All depends on the severity of the miss (i.e location). Yes you can still get gear effect curve even with player's irons. It's not severe but you have a face open to the path and still negative spin axis ( draw). Bulge does help lessen the effect but the starting direction of the ball's flight and the amount of curve or axis tilt depends on how much face deflection occurred and what the actual face angle is at max compression.

I'd be more than happy to post some Trackman data showing gear effect...but don't have the time to conduct a 'test' to see impact location. There'd also be no reason why i'd 'falsify' data...there's nothing for me to gain by posting objective observations..lol. To answer your last question, no...can't tell you impact location, it simply calculates the deflection that happens at the moment of maximum compression or deformation of the golf ball. So the face angle measurement might be several degrees closed after compression but not necessarily at initial contact. It's able to calculate this angle by directly measuring the launch direction and then factoring in club head speed and path, but it's not a direct measurement.

Yes... It's subtle and hard to notice unless, like you stated, hit way toward the heel or toe. I assure you it does happen quite frequently even with irons to some extent.

Great post Randall. My point was that I see face and path numbers daily that produce ball flights that don't match the D-Plane model. I'd say realistically I see as many or more shots with both irons and driver that produce some degree of gear effect than shots that can apply to face and path differences. Phil says it's no big deal, but I disagree because even instructors who 'understand' the new ball flight laws could easily assume a path issue based on the shot shape. I know because it happens to me all the time. We can't see the 3-D path of the clubhead with our 2-D eyes and can only generalize face angle based on the starting direction of the shot. I don't see how any instructor could accurately determine cause and effect without understanding gear effect and impact location on the face. Like I said initially, it's pretty easy to see a clear toe or heel hit, but an 1/8" off center?

That may very well be true for you, but for the majority of amateur golfers their face and path with the driver don't match and hence the wild crooked shot that typically slices. Angle of attack and loft don't have much to do with controlling face angle, angle of attack does impact path slightly...but the reason it's easier to 'square' up the face of a wedge has more to do with the fact that you're closer to the ball with a shorter club that doesn't have to travel as far. Path isn't 'downward' either but measured horizontally at impact, I think you're confusing angle of attack with path, but the topic was relating to catching the sweetspot so i'm not understanding the point.

Not sure i'm following you...are saying it's harder to square up a wedge vs. a driver? I'm not sure I agree.... because with a wedge when your face and path don't match each other the ball still tends to still fly relatively straight because it's harder to tilt the ball's axis. With driver, all it takes is a slight differential between the face and path and the ball will curve significantly. I find it easier to square the face with a wedge because the club length is shorter and doesn't travel as far along the arc path.

Good feedback.... What concerns me the most about instruction is that many if not most instructors diagnose swing flaws based on visual feedback from ball flight. If impact is just a hair off center but the path and face alignments are otherwise good, I think instruction needs to pay closer attention to where impact happens.

As a Trackman owner, when we talk about ball flight and curvature we use the D-Plane model. For those that don't know, D-Plane is made up as a plane space created by the angle created between the club's path, attack angle, and where the face is pointing at impact. The ball's axis of b ack spin, is always 90* perpendicular to the shape of that plane and this model works well for describing why shots curve how they do in the air. The problem with the D-Plane model, however, is that is ONLY works when the ball is struck perfectly. What I've found in my experiences with Doppler technology, that the majority of shots that create undesireable ball fights are more a result of off-center hits than face and path differences. This is known as gear-effect and seems to have a profound influence on almost all golf shots. Just yesterday evening, saw several swings that produced a noticeable cutting action that would have lead me to believe she was swiping across the ball with a leftward path. Her Trackman numbers indicated she had a positive ( inside out) path of 2* and was reading face angle measurements closed ( -2 or higher). She was making contact toward the heel consistently. I've even seen similar results with elite tour-level players. A former Reno-Tahoe winner was hitting push-cuts with a positive swing path because of the same scenario. When he went back his natural path ( slightly left) and hit his normal baby pull cut; impact dramatically improved. I see this consistently at all levels, and am curious if or how you guys self-diagnose or analyze whether location of the strike is causing issues or a path/face situation. Again, i'm not referring to 'obvious' toe or heel hits, but this phenomena occurs even on mishits by a couple dimples on the ball.

Camera/Optical based systems use primarily algorithms based on photo snaps in a small window of space vs. Doppler systems that actually track the clubhead into impact and lock and follow the ball in flight. It's not the 'set up' that makes it harder, it's the fact that it's not really measuring/tracking much other than what it 'sees' for a split second prior to impact. In terms of accuracy a Doppler system like Flightscope or Trackman is light years ahead of a camera system.

Monitor is inaccurate, find a Doppler system somewhere near you

The getting stuck part meant by taking the club too far to the inside it was getting trapped behind you. If anything, the club would have been across the line at the top, and would cause you make some type of compensation on the way down. Working the club more 'up' helps keep club in front of you making for a better sync of your arms and body

Stretching and flexibility training help tremendously...also 'width' in your swing (i.e. making sure your hands don't get too close to your right shoulder at the top of your swing). The 'wider' the arc the further the club travels and the faster it can move. Don't think you need a lot of distance at Vineyard and Eagle Crest...see your up in Esco.

Adding lag or holding lag can lead to shanks, steepness, early extension and a myriad of other issues. As others have said it's a byproduct of good swing sequence and a backswing that doesn't get too long.

OP's issue is fairly common when people start making tweaks in their swing to change AoA (angle of attack). There could be many different reasons why the path is over the top and the face square to the path. This goes back to the argument about if carry distance outweighs control and consistency. Playing the ball up and setting up to 'attempt' to create an upward AoA often has other consequences that affect the 2 most important factors to controlling the shot and getting distance: center face contact and the face to path relationship. IF the OP is looking for long term solutions to increase distance and lower spin than he/she will have to commit to the process of making set up/swing changes through proper instruction, otherwise I would suggest swinging normally and accepting the results as is. I've seen this happen before with Trackman data to back it up. There are successful drivers of the ball who don't hit up and, unless committed, can mess up your swing. From how I read the post, it sounds like the OP was happy until changing set up and ball position and that's when the problems began.

I agree... When the ball gets moved forward many players get the right shoulder too far away from the body. Make sure you right shoulder is slightly lower than left, in line with your stance, and left hip slightly forward at set up. Ball further back in your stance is getting your angle of attack steeper and getting your path neutral or to the right and also, most likely, getting your shoulders into a better position.

push means you're swinging too far to the right with your club face pointing in the same direction at impact. I doubt your weight is too far back on your right side because usually that results in pulling the club across your body to the left, which is the exact opposite result ( over the top). Check to make sure your upper body/head isn't sliding in front of the ball during the downswing, that can cause 'pushes'.