kc8kir

Hold onto your big foam fingers, face paint, and beer hats people... we may be witnessing the John Daly turnaround! And it's about time...

Well, missing greens certainly never helps, but take another perspective looking at those stats. It's not gonna be what you want to hear, but... You got frustrated and lost a lot of strokes on putting and chipping. That SW and 3 putt on the par 3 is the perfect example. Should have certainly been SW and one or two putts. That's where the short game can save you significantly. I know it's maybe only saving one stroke, but we're only talking about eliminating 5 over strokes. Perhaps you would do well to take the professional approach to these holes. Take some time to map the greens, rolling balls from each side. Map the contour and grain so you know how to get it close from any angle. The pro's score well consistently because they not only have good shots, but they know the course. They know where to hit it, when to hit it there, and more importantly, where not to hit it. There may be a hole where the left side off the green is a severe slope where recovery for par is impossible. So you always plan to never miss left. Play to eliminate big numbers. I've even gone to the extreme of having three strategies for tough holes. Basically three plans: aggressive birdie, regular par, gamesaver bogey. I'll use one or the other based on how I'm playing and feeling that day. It also sounds like you got really mad at yourself. That's probably the biggest challenge for all of us...

I'm guessing you need to fine tune your ball position and striking with the long irons. Sounds like the 3 and 4 iron are really inconsistent for you. That's my take on the problem. Sorry to get off topic. MiniMoe I see you live in San Antonio. I'm currently down here as well for a year on a work assignment. Where do you frequent for practice and play? PM me if ya like.

A tip with the fairway woods and driver. When you position the ball forward in the stance, and correspondingly (instinctively for most golfers) face the ball, DO NOT allow your shoulders to open. This can happen without you realizing, easily openning your shoulders 20 degrees with the driver. Stay square in your setup. If the ball is more forward, only move the club head forward instead of turning your chest. Very easy to constantly be in a position to hit cut shots without even knowing it. This realization is literally changing my game. I was setting up with open shoulders (worse and worse with long clubs) without knowing it. The result was pull > fade > slice as I go up the set. Sneaky golf. It's all in the fundamentals!

Great pics man. Looks like a very nice course. The par 3s I just think are a problem of confidence and committment. You gotta think "let's just put it on the green" instead of "don't put it in the water, don't hook it into the bunker, etc". The brain doesn't understand the word "don't". The par 5 well, there are a couple of ways to attack it. You could practice a power fade and then trust that for the tee shot, then layup short and play for par. Another alternative, play a hybrid to mid iron off the tee for position, another for layup, then a short iron / wedge over. Still can make par, or bogey at worst. It's a par 5, and not all par 5s are worth going for the green in 2 shots. Pick a strategy and commit to it. Trust your game plan.

I wouldn't say I "add lag at impact" more like I "allow lag generation through the turn of my swing". The more I try to add action with the hands (instead of feeling like the body just pulls them through impact) the less lag I get and the worse my shot patterns become. The feel is one of the body pulling the club from the top, or playing tug of war into the hitting zone. That tells me the club is lagging. It's too fast to try and hold then whip my hands (for me anyways). If you are going to pursue a passive hands approach to the swing though, I will add that it is very difficult to turn off the hand control through the hit. The instinct to hit with the hands is very strong!

Sigh...... it's the Tiger Woods generation...hey wait a minute... that's my generation! Just kidding. Nothing wrong with the interlock if you keep the grip in the fingers!

You know, one of the problems I see with the whole "grip style" issue is that people try to hit at or steer at the ball with their hands. So for those people, the grip makes a huge difference (right hand versus left hand action and control, etc). I have read numerous sources that say if your hands are passive in the golf swing, it really doesn't matter. Jack Nicklaus said the type of grip didn't matter provided it "allowed the hands to feel like they worked together". I think Hogan would have agreed. In 5 Lessons he even warned against "conscious hand action in the golf swing". If the baseball grip works for you and your swing is powered and controlled by your body, don't worry about it. Lots of junior golfers use that grip with great success and there have been major champions with the baseball grip (Bob Rosburg). You will maintain lag with passive hands, and a correct grip for you will square the clubface. As far as your brain needs to know, your hands just hold on for the ride. Think of this. They have a blind golfers association, and those guys hit the ball pretty good. One reason: without seeing the ball, they have no hit impulse. Just swing it and the ball gets in the way.

Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks. You gotta do what works for you. The whole "resist with the lower body" thing was really an odd turn for golf swing instruction imo. I think it was well meaning, helping people feel the coil and learn to use their body as a source of power, but it has become overdone. You have amateurs now trying to not turn at all, and just hit with the upper body. It works for some, doesn't work for others. Tour pros get away with it by having rediculous flexibility and coordination. Even so, the trend has started on tour to once again have a large turn. Large turns = large power if they are generated properly. What works for everyone though, is setting up a controlled pivot. That is the foundation for every good swing. It provides balance, smoothness, and control to the entire body throughout the swing. Effortless power, not powerless effort. That's the name of the game.

Yep. Agreed. Shawn's pivot is the same "turn into the right leg, butt swivels to the target". Sets you up to basically "fall" towards the target without a huge extra lateral move (he actually has some neat drills to get the feeling of this). Watch Shawn's swing from the back (I think in his video on dynamic balance or swing analysis) and you can see his pivot gets him in the same reverse K position as Hogan (he also presets the reverse K with a right spine tilt at address). The "Hogan Power Move" is a falling back towards the target as the hips transition then clear and make room for the hands and arms to whip through. Funny actually, because in Leadbetter's book, he would describe that butt towards the target pivot as a swing fault. Lol. Leadworse. At least some teachers out there are finally starting to teach it right!

Yep dead on. Basically three ways to release the club. Forearm Rotation Hogan Body Release Passive Release DTL from Body Pivot The last is the least used today (all swing, no hit). It involves a strong grip, and subduing any hit impulse. The hands and arms are propelled by the lower body. Was a very popular method back in the 50s, and still works fantastic today. See the book "Essentials of the Golf Swing" by John Redman (instructor to Paul Azinger) if you are interested in trying this. A very easy way to swing once you defeat all the forearm crossover habits. I would have to say, based on my experience thus far, the Hogan method produces best compression, but requires more core and upper body strength (it feels more to me like swatting the ball with the body, than a smooth flowing swing). Check out slicefixer on golfwrx.com if you want to try this methodology. It's a great way to get the feel of ball compression. The forearm rotation method is the least accurate and requires the greatest number of compensations. It is however the most commonly taught. Why? Um... who knows...

There are some teachers still who teach total body controlled swings. Arms and hands remain passive, except for the last instant (late hit). The lower body controls the swing from takeaway to followthrough. Basically pulling the club back and through with the action of the lower body (see Essentials of The Golf Swing - John Redman). Sam Snead took the club back with the body motion. Hogan when interviewed once said he did the same (although 5 Lessons says differently, which is really strange actually). Harvey Penick wanted his students to feel the body as if swaying a bucket of water. Forward, then back, then through. Byron Nelson said he played with this rocking chair motion and a distinct lagging clubhead takeaway. Different strokes for different folks. I am slowly finding the body controlled takeaway to be much better for me, as it allows me to use my flexibility rather than have to resist against it.

Dude... there is no thing such as "conventional" weight shift. Sorry... we all wish there was, but the way the pivot is taught in golf (which really determines how your weight will shift on the downswing) is different from teacher to teacher. That being said, I can attest that Shawn's Method is good and is more in line with "classic" swings like Bobby Jones and Sam Snead. It helped me a ton (though I need to go back to his posture method and body controlled takeaway to make it really work correctly). Some people maintain there is no conscious weight shift in the golf swing. Hogan was one of those people. Just turn and return. Let your body's balance system take care of the rest. Works for some, doesn't work for others. Oh the fun of experimenting in golf.

Yes sir. Been there. Actually two weekends ago, with a 4 iron. Sky'ed the driver on a straight par 4, leaving me about 220 yards to the green. Pured the 4 iron, stopping it on the back edge of the green. Didn't even feel like I hit the ball. Absolutely straight as can be. Was one of the most fantastic shots I have ever hit. Too bad I three putted afterwards.

If you are tall (over say 5' 6") check your spine tilt (left / right) at address. Most people need more right spine tilt (left hip above right hip) than they think / feel, especially with the driver. Helps take pressure off the back from the transition and followthrough. Gives you better leverage and an easier time at an inside path. Helps your pivot too! For me, at 5' 11" it is essential. I can't hit long clubs at all without some right spine tilt. I'll be swaying and reverse pivoting all over the place!

Dude, I am having the exact same problem as you with a takeaway that is too much inside and flat. In fact, your swing and mine with long clubs are probably almost carbon copy at this point. To fix the issue, I have been working on keeping the hands quiet and only rolling the left forearm on the take away (which helps get the shaft on plane). My problem stems from trying too much to open the clubface with the hands on the backswing, giving a false sense of "getting on plane". If you instead leave the hands quiet, and use the forearm instead while maintaining your wrist angles, it will help quiet the backswing, shorten it a bit, and prevent you from getting too wristy on the takeaway. As a result, the club loops inside, up to the top, and across the line, then on the downswing you can unload too early and cast the club. Feels very much out of control at the top too and makes it really hard to square the face consistently. Try the forearm control method, and think SMOOOTH away from the ball.

Ha ha! Imagine that. Looks like I really shot myself in the foot on that one! I would love to go to slicefixer for some lessons, but it's just a little too expensive for me (even though I live in Texas). He is probably teaching some of the best upcoming ballstrikers in golf right now. We are probably arguing semantics about the left arm then. There is a notional difference between independent left arm rotational release and body release with the left arm being pulling around. It looks to me that slice fixer really wants the hips and shoulders open at impact. In a textbook 2 plane swing, your hips are slightly open, with shoulders relatively square. Makes a difference in how the left arm comes into the ball (by itself, or with some assistance). My swing right now is more two plane, double plane shift, so for me, there needs to be (at least right now) some conscious left arm roll. Most classic 2 plane swingers will tell you the same thing. Hogan's method is certainly a fantastic way to hit a ball though, but in my case, I still slice the ball just pinning my arm and releasing left (since the left arm never returns from that right rotated position to allow the wrist and clubface to come square).

Lol... sounds like you tried "Stack and Wilt" not "Stack and Tilt". From what I have seen, read, and discussed with numerous instructors, the stack and tilt swing is good for a limited subset of players, as it is designed to attack a very particular problem among many better players swings. You are not the first person to try Stack and Tilt and start hitting fat shots and shanks like a 120 shooter. I did the same thing trying it. As far as that elbow action goes, you might try instead focusing on the left forearm (although the elbow probably works just as well), turning it clockwise on the backswing (not too much mind you) and releasing it left on the downswing. How much body turn you make, your grip position, and how you release the club will determine how much and when you need to turn it back counterclockwise on the downswing in sequence with your turn to get the club square. The good thing about using the forearm (or elbow) is that it doesn't tend to pull the clubhead off line like using the wrists does. Try this drill, starting with a 6 or 7 iron. Line up three balls. With an easy tempo, try to hook the first, hit the second straight, and slice the third. Done over and over this will help you get the timing correct. Later you can try to draw the first, straight the second, and fade the third all onto the same target. Kinda fun actually.

I'm going to have to disagree here about the action of hogan's left forearm, based on analysis I have seen in several sources. Although you are correct that Hogan did not use a forearm cross-over release, he did allow the forearm to rotate clockwise on the backswing, and return in sequence WITH the chest through impact, then around and to the left. It could even be argued that Hogan released his forearm rotation angle via the rotation of his body, relative to the swing path, as needed to achieve square contact. Hogan definitely was a "dog wags the tail" hitter on the way down. He most certainly did not rotate it as much as someone like Jack Nicklaus, with a down the line release (neccessary to compensate for less body turn). The more turn, the less forearm release required. Check out slicefixer on golfwrx. He has studied Hogan and teaches some very very good students a swing that is 99.999% Hogan. The left forearm still turns as you make the swing, but you keep the chest connection and rotate left. It is entirely possible, I am living proof, to try not to allow that forearm to rotate back counterclockwise with the chest on the downswing (too much lateral pulling action) and thereby anatomically prevent the clubface from squaring. I'll go ahead and leave it like that. It's really too bad Hogan didn't write more about his swing, because there are still key questions like this that go around, and everyone feels compelled to jump out with "well Hogan didn't do that, and look how he hit it". It's an ok argument, if everyone on the planet is supposed to hit exactly like Hogan. I certainly don't believe this (neither did Harvey Penick, one of the greatest golf teachers of all time). Perhaps the greatest lesson Hogan left us was that you have to practice and find your swing. Not some textbook swing, or a gimmick from Golf Digest. Own your swing. Find what works, figure it out, and stick to it.

Just a warning about early wrist hinging. You need to monitor that when you do it, you keep the club in front of your chest and don't inadvertently use the left wrist to pull the club too much to the inside in the process of cocking the wrist. The feel is almost the same as the correct move, so it is difficult to distinguish which you are really doing without video. This move will produce a looping inside takeaway and a cupped left wrist, and is a really difficult position to recover from from the downswing. Nothing wrong with early wrist hinge for many people. Just don't overdo it. I personally have very flexible wrists, so for me, it's a death sentence. I end up whipping the club from the start, looping it inside, and then throwing it from the top. You'll have to figure out which way is best for your swing. Models for Early Wrist Hinge: Nick Faldo, Ernie Els Models for Late Wrist Hinge: Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods

Indeed, I have to agree with you in some part. You see many pros however with strong grips (Boo Weekly is a good example, Duval and Azinger are others) who have to hold off the release to avoid hooking the ball. Azinger learned this from John Redman, who taught him not to turn over the forearms. Duval learned his technique as a kid, working to get lots of power out of his swing (so I have read). Years ago, you would have seen more players with more "neutral grips". Then again, golf used to be more of a precision sport, and less of a power contest on tour. A strong grip allows you to easily hold more wrist cock in the downswing, thereby allowing a more aggressive move through the ball (not neccessarily better accuracy though). I personally use a neutral grip because I don't like the feel and compensations required for a strong grip. However, I was making the point earlier that anatomically, if you "just let it do its thing" but inadvertently "restrict the forearm rotation", you will not get the clubface square. Very difficult to tell if you are doing this through the hitting zone (took video analysis to see it on my swing). It's a feel more than anything else. I've never felt it was fair to say "be natural" in the golf swing. That means different things to different people, and let's face it, to the average joe, the golf swing is not a natural act. Sometimes you gotta reprogram the body to achieve the desired result or stop getting in its own way. One person's initial "natural swing" may produce a nice high draw, while the other guy ends up topping it.

This is exactly what makes learning golf solo so difficult. Feel versus real. In most cases, what you think is the correct "position" statically, is totally wrong in the actual swing "dynamically". Golf learning is more the sequence of: Try this feeling, exaggerate it, check the results. Adding in video helps tremendously to learn what feelings put you in the right positions (NOT the other way around).

Chris, I can see you are a Ben Hogan fan, so let me let you in on a little swing key. Perhaps you are aware of it already, but it could be the key to you getting that draw / occasional cut under control. Yeah, I know, I'm an 18 handicap, but this is something I learned from a good pro, so maybe it will help you. The release of the club is powered by the forearms, not the wrists and hands. The wrists themselves, with the exception of the supination action to maintain lag, play very little part in the overall swing. The left forearm roll is what squares the clubface. Hogan did this already, in fact he did it too much, which combined with this fast hips caused a hook. His cupping the wrist and weakened grip allowed him to keep this fast forearm roll and preserve his timing, while avoiding the hook. If you try to use your wrists on longer clubs to both supinate (pronate? ... whatever... you know what I mean... lol) and turn the club over, you are always going to be either ahead of or behind the timing required to hit the ball under control. Using the wrists this way produces a very whippy release that is very, very hard to time. The diagram in 5 Lessons is a bit misleading this way, because you can't notice that the forearm is controlling the actual roll-over, not the wrist itself. Since using the left forearm turnover uses bigger muscles, it is a more stable, and more controlled way to release the clubhead. Tour Pros have been doing this for years. A strong grip is simply a left forearm preset, so the backswing requires less clockwise rotation to reach a solid top position. The downswing then requires less counter-clockwise release to get to square. You can still, and must, use the wrists properly to deloft the clubface. It's just not the only action to square the clubface. Trying to release solely with the wrists is a major cause of pain and confusion for the average golfer (including me until recently ). You can strengthen your grip all day, not roll the forearm, and hit a massive slice. Then you think, "oh I must be coming over the top". Nope. Take a look on a swing monitor, and you can be coming from too much inside and not getting the face square. Without the left forearm rolling over, it's anatomically impossible (your wrist locks based on forearm rotation angle). To prove this, hold your left arm out in front of you and grab your left hand near the wrist with the right hand. Try to rotate the hand around the wrist joint without turning the forearm. Impossible. If you do get any range of motion, it's from bending the wrist (and we want to avoid flipping in the golf swing). Setup as before and now allow the forearm to rotate the wrist. Notice how the angular rotation of the forearm dictates the angle of the wrist? That also represents the clubhead. Pretty easy now to understand how you can hit the ball thinking you turn your wrists over, and then either duck hook it (flip it over far too quickly) or slice it (zero forearm rotation). It sounds like you have gotten pretty good at the wristy release and probably have some forearm roll already (the draw). So for you, I just recommend working in some left forearm roll control with the longer clubs. It is easy to time, and much less whippy than just the wrist roll. Once you program the wrist action, let it take care of itself. You just roll the arm over. With the shorter irons, the wrist roll only release is possible because the club is both shorter and lighter (although over time you may find the forearm roll is more consistent). Swinging some mid-irons with the left arm only can help you get the feeling of turning the arm over to square the face. Took me a while to find this out. Finally had a teaching pro tell me at an impromptu lesson that the "release occurs from the rolling the forearm" and I said "but I thought you square the club with the wrists...". He looked at me like I was talking a foreign language, then explained how the forearm controls the wrist movement and thereby the clubface. The impact on my swing within minutes of working on the forearm roll was amazing. Smooth, stable, and so much easier than my wristy action. I still consciously use the wrists on short shots for feel and compression, but it's in conjuction with the forearm roll. Let me know if this helps ya!

Well, some instructors would take issue with moving the ball forward to "allow more time for the club to close". This works for some people and doesn't work for others. Many people move it forward only to find that they now have to chase after the ball, or end up cutting across it through impact, imparting slice spin. Most pros move it BACK to draw the ball. Forward to fade it. Since the burner is draw biased, and the fti neutral, I get the feeling that the ability to close the clubface is not the true problem. It's swing path, timing, or setup. Or a combination. That being said, you may just like the feel of the Fti shaft better than the burner. The burner is a very lightweight shaft, so the feel during the swing is somewhat reduced. The Fti may just fit your swing tempo better. I'm not suggesting swinging faster. Quite the opposite. I was saying swinging faster and harder will only make you slice harder. Just trying to save you a few buck and improve your swing if we can.

I really prefer sabers and rapiers. The slashing attacks are so much fun! There is a funny story about Jimmy Demaret playing with Ben Hogan. Ben hit a bad shot and Jimmy quickly quipped, "Did you hear the glass breaking on that one?". Pretty funny.