4Aces

Yes they measured distances and were working with the players in question to judge arousal state. They also differentiated between high pressure situations and common. They have extended their research and have worked with college and high school players and teams. Their book is in the 7th reprinting since being published in 1999. Their weekend program is really for serious students willing to spend $1000. But now I am starting to sound like an infomercial which I was really trying to avoid. Again, I will bow to your arguments. They are well reasoned and you certainly have a lot of numbers to back up your opinion.

What question have you asked that I have not answered? And I apologize for the way I phrased my comment. There are certain forums with strong personalities or devoted to a certain idea. You have many fans here and that dominates the board. The people are friendly, the writing and views expressed are well done and beyond most forums. But with legions on one side, that obviously believe in your research there just is little room for a dissenting view. It becomes one versus many. I understand it isn't personal, it isn't being ganged up on. But after many years on forums, and almost as many as an administrator, I understand what makes this site popular with the posters. It seems like a great golf site. But I know if after one day on a board I am knee deep in controversy it just isn't a good fit.

Listen, obviously this site is about you and your book. I'm sorry I entered the conversation. If you really are interested, their book is The 8 Traits of Champion Golfers , it is available from Amazon and others. Simon and Shuster is the publisher. By the way congrats on getting your book financed and published. That is an accomplishment to be proud of. I would like to read your book, where can I find one?

Agreed. It also helps if one person is someone you know. Also players and equipment change. I was rereading Hogan's book and while there are a few solid things, several ideas were just really outdated.

Does that really make a difference? I've been pointing out the research that Dr. Graham conducted for her PhD under rigorous scientific standards and what her and Jon continued to do over thirty years on all of the major tours, including personally working with PGA Tour members who have won majors. You see how far that got me BTW, one of their concepts that I found interesting and is somewhat on point to this thread is ultimate arousal states. The very basic version of their theory is you need that little spike of arousal on the tee box and as you get closer to the hole you need to calm that down for putting. You don't want to be too jacked up on the tee nor sleepy on the greens.

The different tee thing is focusing on tee shots and reaching the desired approach distance. Most people have been debating yardage on shots into the green. When the two are blended nothing makes sense.

Hitting shots on the range would not provide the input I used to answer the question. I am focused on tournament rounds only. The research by Jon Stabler and Dr. Graham was about shots under pressure, as in "have to make birdie". I agree that in a casual round, or on the range, closer is better (all other factors equal). But with shaky hands in a big tournament, I like a fuller swing, and their research and years working on the various tours around the world, has borne that out.

Actually not hypothetical, as noted I have used this with a lot of players. Learning to control where the ball is going is critical at any level of play. Most everyone here rightfully agrees that accuracy into the greens is important. I take it to the earlier shots as well. Every shot has a target (or at least they should). Hitting that target leads to better scores. Hitting as far as you can with accuracy has worked into lower scores. Most of those 100 shooters racks up several or more penalty shots each round. Eliminating them lowers scores. The average amateur, as you noted doesn't do much well. I believe each person here could teach them a 150 iron shot that hits 75% of the fairways long before they can teach them a 225 yard driver that isn't spraying everywhere. But hey, as I said YMMV. I've spent a lot of time working with average amateurs. I've tried teaching distance first then accuracy and I've tried accuracy first. Now I blend the two, but work harder on accuracy. I've also worked with players on keeping their game together under pressure and I know what has worked for the majority of my players. As was mentioned to me, keep an open mind. But my career depends on developing golfers so this isn't a theoretical discussion.

Accuracy over distance part whatever The OP said for amateurs. Last I looked the average amateur doesn't keep a handicap and rarely, if ever, breaks 100. If y'all are talking about amateurs that break 80 regularly then we have a completely different player in mind. If a player can hit 150 with some accuracy he can break 90 on most courses. I've taken players who have never broken 100 and had them shoot in the 80s just by hitting back to back 150 yard shots on Par 4s and three times on par 5s. From there they are even more accurate because as y'all have proven closer is more accurate. They are putting for par on the majority of holes. Stay in the fairway, avoid penalty strokes, bunkers, tall rough, and all the other shot wasters, put for par on most holes, and you have a nice recipe for the average golfer to score their lowest rounds. Even better, the game is less frustrating and they have a good time until one of their buddies they beat convinces them that isn't how the game is played. I spend 150 days a year each evening with players from low handicap to beginners who have never played before. It's a winning formula to keep people in the game, not get too frustrated, and eventually turn themselves into solid players. Again, if you want to break 80 regularly you do need distance, but accuracy is important, I'd place the overall rate for amateurs at 65-75% accuracy for a better game. As they say the woods are full of long hitters.

Really? I've been reading it is always better to be closer. That a half shot from closer is always better than a full shot further away. Someone suggested hitting balls on the range and comparing results. I'm looking at real golf courses with real undulations, hazards, and suggesting that finding your best place to hit your third from on a par five is better. Lots of people are disagreeing with me. I haven't actually rated courses, I was too busy with positions at my club. I took the course because it was offered at my club and I was really interested. I'm such a golf nerd. As you can tell.

The OP asked about distance versus accuracy. I believe in managing distance and hitting for accuracy. The ability to control your distances and hitting to a target is better than raw distance and no control. Here is the background, someone said I must be a short hitter, that is far from the truth. I use to bang away at every par five in two, reach for a driver on every par 4. Then I worked with a pro who showed me, and proved to me by analyzing score cards, I was costing myself strokes. The final "proof" for me was participating in the USGA handicapping and slope classes and understanding how slope is calculated. The pro and I rode each hole at my home course. We looked at all the trouble around the greens on the par 5s. Then we scoped back and looked at all the landing spots 100 yards and in. I started looking for targets around the green that I could reach comfortably and consistently. The closer the better, but sometimes the closest high percentage spot wasn't next to the green. I started to eliminate doubles from my game. I may have also given up the occasional bragging rights on an eagle. But hitting a five iron layup to an open flat area and leaving me a full wedge into the green lowered my scores from the days of being in a bunker, or water, OB, high rough, or putting for eagle. Then we looked at the par 4s. We took my average driver distance (265 carry at the time) and stopped there and looked what was around. On a few holes using a three wood off the tee allowed me to hit a wider landing area and eliminate a lot of trouble. I began to eliminate some double bogeys from those holes. My handicap dropped from a 10-13 to a 5-6 without improving any other portion of my game. So I do not have an argument to those that believe banging everything as far as they can hit it will improve their game. But I've been there, done that, and it wasn't a very good way for me to play. I play better from the fairway. I play to as high a percentage shot as I can. There isn't anymore I can add. There are some people here with products to sell and promote. I get that, I'm not fitting into that mold.

which is perfectly understandable. I've been arguing that you have to control distance. A flat spot 40 yards from the pin is preferable for amateurs than a 25 yard down hill shot to a tight pin. Likewise a 25 yards shot from a open end of the green is preferred to a 30 yard shot from the rough. It's all about putting yourself in a position to be successful. There are certain distances that every player has confidence in. If yours is a 50 yards sand wedge, and you have had more success with that why hit it to 40 yards? We can sit here and pull up what ifs all day long. I don't agree that 100% of the time closer is better. Think smart, leave you with your best shot, and you will lower your scores. If you are a bad bunker player, 10 yards from the bunker can't be better than 30 yards outside the bunker. Each shot is different. Thank y'all. It was fun, but this just isn't what I was looking for. From reading the threads there is a group dynamic here that just doesn't work for me. Fairways and greens, or if you prefer deep in the rough and closer

So many people have watched so many players and watched and logged so many shots then arrived at different opinions. Pelz and Stabler (short game and mental game guys) came up with a conclusion that has worked for me. Now I read something from someone on the internet that has also done the same research, came with a different conclusion, and I should abandon everything and totally change? For how long? Until someone else comes along, watches thousands of shots, and arrives at a different conclusion . . . As I said YMMV. It seems both of our minds are made up doesn't it

After Forty years of playing and countless tournaments I know what works for me. I've also heard enough pros talk about being "between clubs", I've also watched a lot of tournament shots. The toughest shots for amateurs to consistently hit well are partial shots that they rarely practice. Your Mileage May Vary.

As a High School coach this is my life. I always take a few underclass students who want to learn the game. This season it was six of my 28 players. Three I even supplied clubs for. It's the same thing I do in the classroom by getting students to enjoy literature.

I've played a lot of customer golf, boss golf (not much different) and rounds with friends at my club. I've given 10 foot putts for nine on many occasion, I can't remember giving one for birdie. If there are groups backing up and you are on your way to a 115, I'm conceding putts to you all the time. Probably not the first putt, but lag it up there and I will be waiting to tap it back to you. I want you to have a nice day, see my course, enjoy a nice meal, and most of all enjoy group's company. So if you have an important 20 foot putt, I'm going to cheer for you while knocking those 10 foot quadruple bogey putts away. Now if we are playing a member-guest we're playing everything to the hole. But just a social round? Casual.

I also recently spent hours discussing the mental side of golf with Jon Stabler who co-authored with Dr. Deborah Graham "The 8 Traits of Champion Golfers". This was a point he makes in his workshop. He has worked with over 300 professionals on all the major tours. When the pressure is on find your most comfortable distance. That may be a 90 yard gap wedge. Avoid the in between shots, the shots requiring delicate touch. You like being close and having to flop something to a short pin? Great. That's your comfort shot. I'd rather be a bit farther back and hit something firmer. But to make a blanket statement that everyone should always try to be as close to the green as possible doesn't ring true with me.

I'm going to side with Dave Pelz and watching players. Also a third of those responding to a poll on this site pick distances over 60 yards as their go to distances. When your nerves are rattling and you have to control distance a mid something feel shot is not as high of a percentage shot as a full swing. Too many amateurs quite on those touch shots and leave them short. YMMV

Managing distance is important. But most players will be closer with a full shot than something that is for example just over a half but not quite a 3/4. There is a go to number that you want to hit to. Plus a 45 yard shot over water and sand may be more intimidating than the 65 yard shot from the other side of the fairway without any danger.

I was going to be a smart ass and pick

If the club it replaced was not well fitted or suited to your putting style, then the improvement will be lasting. Other times the weight, balance, feel of the putter will temporarily block a mistake you were making and eventually the pendulum will swing too far to the other side and you'll be back with the same scores. This sounds like a permanent improvement.

There are two games in question, the game you are playing today and the game you are trying to get to. I'll focus on today's game. Hole strategy should be handled backwards from the green. Too many amateurs try to hit it as far as they can off the tee, then as far as they can on the next until they reach the green. If your best tee shot *today* is 225 and your best 3W is 200 and the hole is 440 then way even consider hitting the green in two? Instead plan on two high percentage shots to move you down the fairway to your best iron distance. Accuracy is your friend in this scenario. Same thing on difficult par 5s. Now for the game you are trying to get to you need some length to play long par 4s and probably those 200 yard par 3s. But trying to hit well beyond your "normal" distance leads to embarrassing mistakes (whiffs, shanks, penalties)

We had a similar situation at my old club. Players trying to cut a corner on a par five kept hitting new houses. The free solution was trying to enforce a "no fly zone". Instead it costs $$$$ in trees. It made a beautiful tee box look contrived and out of character for the surroundings. But rules are rules and unless the shot was made impossible people would continue to try. In the end planting trees was cheaper than the course continuing to pay for repairs to the homes and listen to the homeowners complain about balls landing on their patios.

In the area I live, and the choices you offered, I would travel a couple hours to the Golfsmith that has an outdoor range passing my local Golfsmith and Golf Galaxy. Story that was told to me by the pro at my old club. When he started his career the head pro told him if he wanted to be thought of as a smart and a good pro, never move someone too far out of their comfort zone. With club fitting find out what they are using and make only slight adjustments if necessary. That way it won't feel too strange and usually they will get that "new club bounce" in their games. He thought the guy was just being lazy and didn't want to really work and do a good job. Now he sees the wisdom in that advice for most of the players.Ask yourself if you want to be that customer, you really may want to be. Make changes in stages. Fitters have biases. They are pals with a certain brand rep They get a bigger commission on some clubs They have had success with a certain club In most cases they do not know you, but they do know the various reps, bosses, etc. The XYZ rep just took them to play XYZ course. Buyer beware. Learn as much as you can before starting the process. Have a specific issue you are trying to improve with your current clubs. Distance? Ball flight? Consistency? Alignment? Then ask how that new club is going to help that. Does the answer pass the b.s. test?

Sorry to bump an old thread but I stumbled upon this thread and forum while searching for some ideas to help my own coaching. (it is at the top of a google search) I'd like to mention a couple things that run counter to some of the advice given. It also highlights the problems with high school golf. What other sport would allow someone to not coach, just fill out some paperwork and drive the bus? If a football coach said he wasn't an NFL level player and can't really coach anything, would he get hired? Yet we allow golf coaches to get away with that. It is amazing to me that we can find enough qualified people to coach football, basketball, volleyball, cross country, track, wrestling, and all the other sports but no one is capable of coaching a golf team at the high school level. The average programs have a few players playing in the 70s and 80s.. They also have a players who are struggling to break 100 or even 120. If the coach can't teach the basics of grip, stance, and alignment why are they coaching? I am willing to bet that nine of the next ten people who read this wouldn't think twice about helping their own child, friend, spouse, etc with the basics. High school coaches need to as well. The fact is most coaches can't swing coach the low handicap players, but that might mean two or three players tops in most programs. But we can, and should, help the rest. The elite teams are filled with kids who are taking private lessons. All a coach can do there is find out what the pro has them working on and monitor and give feedback if they are making those changes. It also helps the player to understand what the pro is having them do. I coached one young lady who misunderstood the pro and thought the longer the chip, the higher the loft. I asked her to clarify with the pro before she devoted too much time to that technique. You can show them how to set up alignment rods to check their takeaway, you can stand behind them with their cell phone video camera and show them the club's path and where it should be pointing at the top. You can show them how ball position affects ball flight, contact, distance, etc. You can show them how they place their hands on the club determines contact and ball flight. So many of these things aren't that complicated and do not take a PGA professional to teach someone trying to break 100. Yet we expect the golf coach to just stand there and remind them what time the bus is leaving and to call a pro because only a pro can teach a 36 handicap how to place their hands on a club, of how to place their feet on the ground. I'm leaving out the easy stuff that I think we all agree needs to be taught, items like behavior, etiquette, and rules. I take 28 players to the course each weekday and I will stack up their behavior alongside the public we share the facilities with. I also enjoy in the down times teaching the history and traditions of the game. Not coaching may have worked 30 years ago, but today coaches must earn their money by doing something more than driving the bus and collecting paperwork (which there is a file drawer full). If we aren't going to expect golf coaches to actually coach and help their players, why have a high school sport?