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Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
I put quotation marks around that statement just to show it wasn't me but now you accuse me of: Intellectually dishonest territory!!!!! Misrepresenting who says specific things !!!! Goodbye! -
Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Many thanks for this video. I am basically trying to understand the swing geometry of what's going on when one performs the 'reverse motorcycle move' purely from an academic standpoint. If the bowed wrist was maintained (say from P6) and the downswing progressed so that the clubface was about 15 inches from the ball, wouldn't the shaft be more angulated to the inside of the ball/target line and therefore the clubface more open approaching impact (as in picture D that I previously posted)? I am assuming that there will still be some angle between the lead forearm and club shaft (ie. some radial deviation in the lead wrist) while retaining that bowed wrist position. The statement I posted was from Jon Sinclair, but I must admit I had trouble getting my head around his sentence "I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started." I'm assuming he means that most players he's measured have less lead forearm supination at impact (ie. more pronated) than at address. PS. Hooray! I've just received an email explanation from Dave Tutelman which I now understand, so no need for any more answers to my questions. -
Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Would this statement cover it better? "The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated. First of all, a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well. As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion. I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some. Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it. I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative." -
Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
So is bowing the lead wrist a better way to get forward shaft lean rather than a means of early clubface closure relative to club path? -
Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
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Motorcycle Move With Right Hand?
Warlock replied to ZANDER1994's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
I'm assuming that the 'motorcycle move' closes the clubface relative to the swing path in the early downswing so that you don't have to rotate the forearms as much in the late downswing to square the clubface by impact? I've always wondered how they can prove whether that actually happens or not. For example, if I got into an impact fix position with a flat left wrist and then just purely bowed it, won't the shaft move more inside relative to the ball-target line? Wouldn't the clubface be actually more open to the ball-target line? Is the motorcycle move just pure flexion of the lead wrist or is it flexion combined with a bit of supination? -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
The 1st article was published 5th Jan 2012 The 2nd article has 11/06/2019 on each slide. -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Found another interesting article by Dr Sasho MacKenzie , so maybe that 22% increase in clubhead speed is due to linear work applied to the club and not forearm rotation. In the original article that I mentioned in my opening post he said: "The clubhead speed for Sim3 (44.1 m/s) was 22% higher than that generated during Sim1 (36.2 m/s), which indicates as to how much active rotation of the forearm from a muscular torque can contribute to clubhead speed" Here is another article I found where he conducted regression testing (which I'm not too familiar with to be honest): Forces Applied During the Swing (rccssc.ca) It says the following: Linear Work predicts 90 % of the variability in CHS by itself Angular Work adds extra 9% (does predict 44% if entered alone first) I'm assuming that this recent article is more up to date on what can increase clubhead speed. -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
So, if I've interpreted this correctly: 1. SIM1 - The 'In Plane MOF' unhinged the wrist and angularly accelerated the clubhead earlier in the downswing than SIM3. This is why the clubhead speed could be nearly the same as SIM3 (hinge intact ) at the 0.2 sec mark. This 'In Plane MOF' will continue accelerating the clubhead until impact. 2. SIM3 - The 'In Plane MOF ' that starts to unhinge the wrist at 0.2sec is greater than SIM1 and will accelerate the clubhead to an even greater speed than SIM1 by impact. That this forms most of that 22% increase in clubhead speed plus maybe a little extra speed caused by the active musculature rotation of the forearms. How am I doing? -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
You mean velocity= radius x angular velocity? An uncocked wrist will also increase the MOI of the 'lead arm/club' unit, therefore its angular velocity will decrease even as the radius increases. This is getting more complicated -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Yes, that seems to make sense. Here are the MOI graphs of SIM3 and SIM1 So am I correct in assuming that in SIM3, because the MOI of the 'lead arm/club' unit is smaller about the rotational axis of the torso for a longer period, the 'lead arm/club' unit could therefore be angularly accelerated more by the torso torque generator until the 0.2sec mark (when the lead wrist starts to uncock)? That this increased angular acceleration could account for most of that 22% increase in clubhead speed? Actually, on reflection the above doesn't make sense because the clubhead speed on the bottom graph is about the same for SIM1 and SIM3 at the 0.2 sec mark. -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
This is what is says in that research article I attached. -------------------------------- "The clubhead speed for Sim3 (44.1 m/s) was 22% higher than that generated during Sim1 (36.2 m/s), which indicates as to how much active rotation of the forearm from a muscular torque can contribute to clubhead speed" "Sim1 started with the forearm angle set to -10 degrees (Figure 3a), which placed the center of mass of the club 7.3 cm below the golfer’s swing plane (Figure 3b)." "For both Sim1 and Sim2, the forearm torque generator was set to zero for the entire downswing. In other words, the golfer model was not capable of actively supinating the forearm to square the clubface for impact" "Simulation 3 (Sim3) was considered the reference condition, as the downswing swing was initiated with the shaft perfectly within the golfer’s swing plane and the optimization was conducted with all the torque generators available to supply energy to the system" ------------------------------- Doesn't this mean that SIM1 was still able to square the clubface without any active musculature rotation of the forearms? The forearms must have been rotated by the angular momentum of the club created by that passive torque effect. -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Not disputing that the primary function is to square the clubface but if there was a way of also increasing clubhead speed by 22% wouldn't that be an added bonus? Although I suspect it would require impeccable timing to do both. -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
So are you saying that the club squaring mechanism is probably as per Dr Sasho MacKenzie's explanation below with little forearm musculature effort required? His research for optimising clubhead speed with his model generators both squared the clubface at impact but with a 22% increase in clubhead speed. Doesn't that mean a real golfer could theoretically also do the same? -
How Much Clubhead Speed Is Generated by Forearm Rotation?
Warlock replied to Warlock's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
If you look at the M_Arm graph it starts building torque above zero around P5 (left arm horizontal). I can imagine that the MOI of the club about the longitudinal axis of the lead arm is very high at that point so any small lead forearm/arm torque might not have much effect on moving the club off plane (ie. toppling the club). Although the MOI might be rapidly getting less as the angle between club and lead arm starts getting larger. The increase in clubhead speed due to forearm rotational torque must be happening much later in the downswing when the MOI has decreased. But won't that still cause the clubhead to move off the 'functional swing plane' ?