Naruto

first things first... i dont like to see the pros hit it in the water... i like it because it requires complete and total concentration... you have to hit a shot. you cant bail out there is no safety zone... no "miss" that is good... you think it's gimmicky just because if you hit a bad shot you cant save par....well i'm sorry if you hit a bad shot from 130 yards you shouldnt escape with par.... nobody would cry about it if it were all sand, because then all there terrible misses wouldn't take par out of the equation... these guys are pros, the water shouldnt be bothering them. perhaps you shouldn't be so in love with tiger that you hang on ever word he says... or let me guess you started a similar thread about 17 last year before tiger called it gimmicky.... right???

there's too much luck involved in hitting fairways and so it doesn't suit him there.... now the british open is okay because there he can win.... seems kind of like a trend with him... bad mouth the places he cant win.. like riveria... those were definitely some terrible bumpy greens.. i'd bet it's not long till he skips the players like he does the nissan

who missed it long... and by left i dont mean the ones that hit a hook... i'm talking about the ones that the wind pushed way left or right....not the one that caught the front left edge and bounced in. funny thing is i am on several other forums... this is the only one with several members saying that the 17th is too gimicky and that it's not a good test of golf... that there's luck involved... the only luck is that the pros have the god given ability and the oppurtunities to develop their skills enough that they are given the chance to play one of the most prestigious courses in all of golf for FREE... WITH EVERYTHING GIVEN TO THEM.... EVERYTHING. they need to shut up and play golf. that's the hole... it is where it is because that's where the great course designer pete dye liked it... if they dont want to deal with all those inconviencing factors and they dont want to deal with the wind for that ridiculous prize money then call me i will gladly stand in for them. you wont hear me crying about wind conditions... everyone is having to deal with the same thing... real champions dont cry because of a little adversity.... what about professional football players that play in feezing rain, snow, and rain.... you guys are seriously defending the pros and why? they are given every luxury... those poor guys having to hit a golf ball in changing wind conditions; ONE DAY WITH SEVERE WINDS... the thing is before TIGER WOODS said 17 is gimicky all of you probably thought 17 was the coolest hole in golf... these forums are rapidly filling up with teenagers who worship every word out of his mouth... I've said all i am going to say about the 17th... thank god pete dye and the powers that be dont bend as easily as the forum populous to the will of TIGER... BOMB AND GOUGE THAT'S ALL I DO... SHOTMAKING THATS FOR OLD GUYS LIKE SEVE, WATSON, NICKLAUS, PALMER, and PLAYER...

wait a minute now... the ones coming up short were hitting 8 into a 25 mph wind... why not take the 7 and make sure you got enough...25 is definitely worth 2-3 clubs minimum. no you dont watch all the people in front of you barely get an 8 iron there and hit the same club unless you are flag hunting.... there is no way that any more than 10 % of the field would have missed that green if they would have been thinking middle of the green with enough club to get there in that wind... im not nearly as good as those guys with distance and trajectory control... i hit my 8 about 160, pretty close to what they do and i would have been hitting a 7 minimum and more than likey opted for the 6 especially after watching everyone else in front of me getting no where near the middle with 8... logic dictates that the ball is getting hammered in that wind and that an extra club isn't going to go long... my point is everyone in the water was short..... there was a lot of room behind that pin.... they were trying to keep it on that lower front tier and they paid the price. now if 1/4 of the water balls would have been short, and a 1/4 left and a 1/4 right and 1/4 long then i would have conceded that WOW those swirling winds cant be handled...that the hole is gimicky and too much luck is involved... but no all short all hitting the same club, it's not luck that's doing that it's poor course management....

is it j.j.henry that has hit that green every time he has played the hole (13 times)... as i watched the replay the guys that hit the ball in the water were going after that front pin... STUPID... i think the correct approach to 17 is the middle of the green... dont even look at the flag... play that hole for a 3.. if you drain a 45 footer then hooray for you but play for the 3.... how many of them went in the water long???? thank you. most of the water balls were trying to hit it into that 25 mph wind to a front pin... what sense does that make? none sergio trying to hit the 9 iron in there... made some kind of chicken wing follow through and came up some 20 yards short... this year thursday was very difficult due to winds that are three times what they normally are, but the players that just tried to hit the middle of the green were able to do so. if you play for the middle of the green then there is no luck involved... 17 is playing a full stroke over par because these guys are going at sucker pins in terrible conditions... trying to get that miracle 2.

anywhere from 10 to 185 yards.... depending on where on the clubface i make contact.

the flag stick being bent over one year doesnt mean anything... so they should boycott the entire venue for the verizon heritage because there were walls of sand blowing sideways and they couldnt get a 6 iron to go more than 120 yards.... now thats wind... one time means nothing.... so one practice round with insane wind action is not the norm.... there happens to be a tropical storm off the eastern coast right now so weird wind can be expected.... they are the best players in the world so i would like to see them work in some insane conditions every now and then and have to face some very daunting shots.... hell i can hit a 9 iron into a 10' circle on a calm sunny day as well as most of you can... i dont want to watch that day in and day out.... i can shoot a mid 70 on a perfect day, but on a nasty windy day i could shoot a 90.... i want to see these guys shoot a 73 on these nasty days... keeps it interesting when there are other variables.... fairways and greens, albeit great golf, is very boring golf.... that's what makes water hazards so much more entertaining.... a bunker isn't a hazard.... a hazard is something you cant play from... a bunker is an inconvenience, same thing as a collection area, they serve almost no purpose.... I am tired of watching tiger hit a drive 50 yards to the right hitting his recovery shot into a "hazard" (waste bunker) topping it to the greenside "hazard" and getting up and down for a birdie.... wow those hazards really showed him... let's see him make a 3 from the water.... that's a freaking hazard.

again tiger has said when you hit the ball properly, as he does, the wind doesn't affect the ball much. i think you guys are reading too much into the wind: it's not like its always blowing like at the verizon heritage... its not gail force winds that are going from into your face to dead from behind while the ball is in the air. phil said he's been short and long with the same club... sure if the wind is dead into his face and he hits a 9 it will come up short and then if later the wind is dead at his back the 9 will be long... COMMON SENSE here... i dont think the 17th is any more gimmicky than 16 at augusta... the players are always complaining about swirling winds there. in the end if they hit the ball in the water at 17 i think it is more due to the fact that they are thinking about how diffucult the task of hitting a wedge that somehow can land on a surface the size of an aircraft carrier, than it is to do with the wind.... I THOUGHT THESE GUYS WERE GOOD...are they only good when everything is perfect..... and they have room to bail out? 17 makes the golf tournament interesting right down to the wire... it reveals the medal of the golfer. i hope to one day get the chance to go birdie that hole....

i like mike a lot... i thought double d was going to take this thing and if he had half a brain he would have. he should have used that immunity and gotten into the final 4. he stood a better chance of getting through and elimination with dave in it than with ashley and mike. oh well if you make stupid decisions you face the consequences. tommy's swing is a thing of pure amazement... his timing has to be perfect for him to have a good day... he makes jim furyk's swing look smooth. ashley has definitely got game and nice " shoes " so she gets an infinite amount of hottie points... I will pull for Mike because BB2 is the first one i watched and I really liked Mike from that show. to whoever said that tommy's ballstriking is on par with Mike's: what are you smoking crack??? he hit wedges 500 feet offline? he hooks and pushes the ball all over the place... did you watch the BB4 where he hit a wedge off the old course which struck a van and bounced back in.... I've seen mike hit a few ify putts but he's never all over the course. Mike if nothing is an excellent ballstriker.... it's obvious everyone in the show thinks so they all respect his iron play especially in the wind... and you cant play good wind golf unless your ball striking is spot on. just my opinion

HECK NO IT'S NOT GIMMICKY... that holes the best par 3 in golf and the fact that it's the 17th....35th....53rd...and 71st hole makes it superb for the tour. what do you mean it's too hard. it's a freaking 9 iron, you're tiger woods for crying out loud... you know 240 yard 7 iron up hill out of thick rough over an oak to the front of the green at pebble tiger.... 210 yard 6 iron to a back pin over a lake: chip in at augusta on 16 from no mans land and make the greatest nike commercial ever .... yeah that's you... you're that guy. no way you are bothered by a 150 yard par three with water around it? you guys know that he wouldn't feel that way if he had better showings at sawgrass... if he had a dozen top tens and 3 or 4 wins there he would be saying it was a great test of skill that makes the players step up. just my opinion.

started playing 3 years ago in new mexico ( 7-9 times a week baby).... bought a membership for 250 bucks bought some square two irons 150 bucks bought two square two wedges 40 bucks (20 each) was given an el cheapo putter bought dunlop and topflite golf balls 16 bucks for 32 (at least once a week) bought an el cheapo bag 30 bucks played with that for 3 months bought a tommy armour 845 silver scott 1 iron (16*) for 10 bucks in the middle of the first fairway from John ( the guy that got me started) upgraded the bag to a 14 way divider system and got a bag boy cart bought a clevland 330 launcher 8.5* got down to about a 15 or so with this setup.... got a job at a CC .... then i really started playing golf bought a clevland cg10 50* wedge...a week later bought a clevland cg10 55* wedge....a week later bought a titleist vokey 58* wedge....about a month later bought mizuno mp-32's ..................about a month later bought a nickent pipe putter............about a month later bought a callaway BB 15* 3 wood......about a week later bought a nike golf bag played with that till i got down to about an 8.... moved to baltimore bought a 905T ...............................about 5 months later bought a scotty cameron studio design #3 putter.... about 3 months later bought a mizuno f-50 18* 5 wood......about 2 weeks ago caved the face of the callaway bb 3 wood in and sent it to callaway who, about 3 days ago, sent me a 13* x tour replacement......still havent hit one ball with it ( it's killing me) thats the current setup....

I'm going to put in carry because roll is dependant 905T - 265-270 X TOUR- ???? just got it and havent hit it yet F-50 - 225-230 3I - 210-215 4I - 200 5I - 190 6I - 180 7I - 170 8I - 160 9I - 150 PW- 140 51* - 125 55* - 110 58* - 95 SC - 10' too short or too long

i think that the main problem is too many people come to the golf course to socialize instead of playing golf .... no matter your skill level if all you do is hit the ball and go find it and hit it again you can still get done in 4 hours or less... another thing is in tournaments you get 5 minutes to look for a ball... dont do it on a crowded course. i play expensive balls.... if i cant find it in 1 minute or less I drop... if i am willing to piss away a 4 dollar ball then everyone else can afford to piss away one of what they are playing... a 28 handicap isnt playing pro v's and last time i checked top flites were only .20 cents a ball... its not worth 5 minutes to look for one of those. just my .02 cents.... and yes i have always adhered to the 1 minute lost ball search rule......even if it is off the fairway and somewhere in the rough.

two older guys and myself got it done in 3 and a half while marking everything, cleaning the balls before putting, and hitting in turn (not playing ready golf).... there's no excuse for a round of golf taking more than 4 hours... that's with a 30 minute stop at the turn... not stop 3hours 30 minutes is more than enough... not like we played well either... i shot 8 over but they shot in the upper 90's... so yes i agree do whatever it takes to play 18 in less than 4 hours per round, barring hitting into the group infront.

YESTERDAY... 20 mph winds all day 1st hole tall fade into the trees.... 2 groover 5 iron that limps onto the front....18-20 footer drops for a birdie... 2nd hole perfect bomb down the middle left me 210-215 to the flag ( middle ) into left to right and slightly into me head wind.... center of the fairway with a hanging lie and a 3 iron in hand.... PURED IT.....lands flag high 8' right and releases leaving me 20 foot for the birdie...3 PUTTED 10 hole.... 300 yard drive with the big bounce and maybe a slightly helping wind.... must have been a turtle in the fairway.... had 95 left to the hole... 58* to 12' make the slider for a birdie 18th hole.... 290 drive (slightly helping again) leaves me 110 slightly uphill to a right center pin... 55* cg 10 is all over it.... gave it the old " be the right club today..." and bounces and then we hear a rattle and see the flag shake.....COULD IT BE????... no but it did leave me a 1 foot birdie to end the day.... no i didnt shoot 2 under.... more like 8 over.....those 4 were the only greens i hit all day... but i only had 26 putts so that's good, at least i was getting up and down most of the time

MARK MY WORDS: DON IS GOING TO TAKE THIS THING tommy... nice guy, but been around bri too much: quit worrying about what don is doing and start playing some golf DON has earned the right to talk, he's got more game than any of them. sure he didnt win bb2 but had that putt on the 20th hole gone 1/2" further who knows??? not like he's just slouching his way around. He's outplaying them. Hell if i were Don i would be right in Gainey's ear every second talking about what I was going to buy with that 5 grand, because I obviously dont need the mulligan and where i was going to drive my new chrysler SUV to first; I'd ask him if he wanted some full swing thoughts and maybe a few pointers on his putting and wedge game.....

WELL.... better players usually dont want to do what kenny g did... with a wedge and my regular full swing i can get the kenny g effect.... sure it looks super cool but it usually costs me more than it helps me.... this weekend for example i had one 70 yard shot to a back pin so i thought i would hit a dead arm 58* and throw it in there try to get it to one hop to the hole.. got a little handsy at the bottom and it went 10 feet past but spun back to a foot...so good spin helped. then on three other holes i hit it hole high and they came back 10+ feet all of them... I should have made at least one of those putts but i didnt.... had i taken one extra club and less swing i might have been able to get them to within 5 feet and converted all three... so it gave me one birdie but took away three. You look at all the good tour guys and none of them are trying to hit shots that spin that much... a few feet is one thing but 10+ is another.... especially when you have a wedge in your hand, i am definitely expecting to be within 10 feet..... i am going to really focus on the dead arm wedge shot that tiger likes so much... its just better to throw darts that stick as to spinners that run all over the place, BUT THEY DO LOOK COOL. One of my spinners this weekend came on the 4th with some older guys who from 135 hit bump and run 8 irons all to about 6 feet... so from 90 yards i was really feeling like i had to stick it .... i hit it about 2-3 feet over the flag but the spin left me with about a 12 footer to convert... i didnt but 2 of the old guys did....damn i need that dead arm wedge

SUMMER...205 CARRY...no roll because i hit it into greens and i always keep the grooves clean and pro v1's....so she sits down like she should winter... 195 carry...still sits cause the grooves are still clean and its the same ball.

when i was a 12 handi i was playing a course, outside of dallas, for the first time... by myself.... it was the 17th hole a par 4 hard dogleg left... tee shot was up hill and i couldnt tell how much fairway i had.... i was a little frustrated by the round to this point and went ahead and hit driver....(by the way i was using my brothers clubs, SnakeEyes) there wasnt much fairway on the line i took (straight) and it went on through into some narly felled timber area...so i try the miracle hack out of it..it trickles into the fairway bunker some 20 yards in front of me... now i have 150 out of a bunker over water to a green thats some 30 feet below me... i hit it fatttttttttt.... trickles through the end of the fairway into the rough... now i have 95 yards into a slight head wind over water to a green thats... you get the point... so i take out the ZEVO 60* and put a mighty wack on it....pins on the front in the middle... one bounce and starts rolling....(the group on 18 is about 30 feet above the green and watching) and rolling ever so slowly.......CENTER CUP...to which we all start jumping and screaming.... they yell over hey was that for eagle....NO IT WAS FOR PAR....lol first time i holed out a full swing.....nice when i was a 2 handicap (fairly recently) it was on the first hole par 4...topped the drive.....still had 200 left...shanked the 5 iron into the right rough behind some full grown pines....had 140 left over pines out of rough to a pin cut just behind a bunker....so i take out ye olde pw...( MIZUNO MP-32 PW ) and put a might whack on it.....i cant see it but it felt good.... so the guys i'm with say well how'd it end up... so i say... It's either one inch short... one inch long...or IN THE HOLE....it landed 1/32" past the hole and must have spun back in....but it was IN THE HOLE... there was a group walking from the 7the to the 8th which goes right behind the 1st that saw it and they said was that for EAGLE...no it was for BIRDIE....lol 2nd full swing hole out.... most memorable though goes to this one when i was a 125 handicap we were on the 12th hole par 4... i couldnt hit woods so i teed off with a 3 iron everytime... topped the 3 iron into the left rough about 75-80 yards....still had a long way to go... pin was on the front right center...take the 3 iron and put a mighty whack on it.... John says what a great shot... i say yeah right probably going to slice and go out of bounds.... it landed 18 inches right of the pin and stopped dead (dulop golf ball, square two iron) one putt for MY FIRST BIRDIE EVER....then on the 17th...par 3 hit my 9 iron into the hospital that was beside the hole... reteed and hit it to an inch or two....lol... GREAT BOGEY...

how do you get down to a 1 without hitting it long.... how do you hit greens from 200 yards out...... simple i average a round of golf every 1.8 days....i've only been in maryland for a year...and i am returning to charleston, sc this summer... so pretty much the way you get down to a 1 is play/practice almost every day.

well as much as i respect and appreciate your response, i feel compelled to offer the following. I rarely play anything less than 7100...sure if you put him on a 6600 yard course he's playing putt putt with a couple full swings... yeah he's likely to shoot 58-60.... but not at a course thats as long as the ones he's currently playing and then with the fairways being a little shaggier, there goes a lot of roll so it's going to play at least as long if not longer for him. so he's hitting the same sticks into the greens which means he's going to face several 10-20 footers through mine fields... no, he's not going to shoot 73 but he's not going to shoot 63 either... I would imagine he could get around in a couple under consistently but I doubt highly that we would see him shoot 4 mid to low 60's... just my opinion... i'm basically saying that if augusta had my muni's greens the scores would be much higher.. especially since you cant repair "spike" marks....

exactly the reason i feel that if you put Tiger on a public course he struggles to break par... not because he's not good... but because i dont care if you hit every fairway and every green if the putts dont drop you dont go low...and we all know what putting is like on public courses....800 people standing around the hole.. the way the holes are cut (the volcano affect), the unrepaired pitch marks, the horribly repaired pitch marks... the people who lean on their putters while on the green... the dragged feet... No Tiger skips the Nissan because those greens frustrate him... how would he do on a Muni????

glad to see gary is gone... he sucked... couldnt believe it when valerie went off on those guys over ashlee... ashlee is playing her arse off... she deserves some props.... i kind of like mark... he's got a laid back attitude... but i only watch for double D....the man.

I carry the ball about 260-265.... but not 275-290....not sure where you got that i have problems carrying the ball 250+ but whatever. I am a 1 handicap because i can hit greens with a 4 iron from 210. Also because i dont hit balls out of bounds or into water...

where at in Maryland? i'm just north of baltimore i wish i could carry the ball 290... hell i wish i could carry it 275.... i just had my first lesson and found that I am not getting everything out of my swing that i can... so hopefully i can tear the old one down and rebuild a new one that allows me to take advantage of what little power i do have... i really wish i had taken a lesson sooner... great info... i still cant imagine carrying a ball 300....