Legalizing drugs?

[julie_m]

So is a drunk passed out in his own vomit, So is guy who smokes through a hole in his throat because of cancer. So is the guy who dashes out his brains bunjee jumping off a cliff or skydiving. The lonely guy gambling away his daughter's college education in a smokey casino is scary too. And on and on with any example of execution of personal liberty that has a risk factor to it. In all of these cases, and with drug use as well are examples on the other end of the spectrum of responsible people who don't trash their lives.

To be fair, some of those things are illegal. Casinos are (though I'm not touching the Indian issue with a 30 foot pole). A lot of places are moving toward illegal smoking, like France and Minnesota - I'm Minnesota "smokey casinos" are illegal. The bungee jumper example is random, since it's a pretty safe activity, often as unsafe as walking outside your door.

I did look up "connection between drugs and poverty"...seems it's pretty extensive, from drugs leading to poverty, poverty leading to drugs, and both feeding each other. I saw an Australian senate review and a Scottish lit review that listed some factors that esp relate to my anecdote: -habitual drug users have a difficult time securing housing -access to employment and education is hindered -health costs of rehab (if that is the decision) are immense -psychological effects and social breakdowns of these failures need to be considered -the main route out of poverty is welfare-to-work, which drug users have a hard time with (employment point). And no one can argue that when national tax-supported programs are involved, yes, everyone is affected. http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd;=4≷=us http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd;=2≷=us The main opposing argument seems to be "I get high and I'm not a waste." I've been high a few times too (remember my college roommate was a junkie). Did I waste my life away? No. But I believe it could definitely have easily happened. My experience from watching others: when it's happening to you, you don't realize it. Deny, deny, deny. I have to go to work...commence arguing.

[immts007]

But you have said at least once that drugs cannot cause harm except to oneself.

There you go again. Where did I say that? Although I will grant you that it is

literally true.

And when one of those choices endangers or harms another life -- without the consent of the other,

Address the crime itself. Not something you

think is a risk factor for causing crime.

To be fair, some of those things are illegal. Casinos are (though I'm not touching the Indian issue with a 30 foot pole). A lot of places are moving toward illegal smoking, like France and Minnesota - I'm Minnesota "smokey casinos" are illegal. The bungee jumper example is random, since it's a pretty safe activity, often as unsafe as walking outside your door.

Do you think taking a hit off a joint before watching a movie is more dangerous than bungee jumping?

EDIT: Smoking is becoming increasingly illegal in public, because of the direct endangerment of others . with regard to casino's there are currently commercial, non-indian casinos in 17 states.

You are basing it off news reports and internet speak. I assure you someone on meth is a little bit scarier than someone losing their college fund due to gambling.

You make a lot of "assumptions".

My wife is an MSW, who worked in residential treatment, believe me, I know a little more about it than you imagine.

[joshtpa]

Really? I prosecuted these people for 8 years. Next time you see a junkie and think he or she is only causing harm to himself or herself let me know.

[immts007]

Really? I prosecuted these people for 8 years. Next time you see a junkie and think he or she is only causing harm to himself or herself let me know.

How about I show you a person who has taken a methamphetamine and not only isn't harming others but hasn't harmed themselves? I suppose you think those people don't exist? I would bet money there are FAR more of those than the junkies you prosecuted.

[mev]

I don't think you two will see eye to eye on this, and can fill several more pages of the same banter.

What about cannabis in particular? Legalizing cannabis would be a good thing. Many studies show that it has medicinal value, especially for those that have cancer. Smoking anything is bad for you, but it doesn't always have to be smoked to be taken. As far as recreational use is concerned, I do not see it as any worse than alcohol or tobacco, and I actually personally think alcohol us much worse, yet is totally legal. For someone to do it in their own home should be legal. When you get in a car or operate other machinery, that's when you're crossing the line, and measures should be taken to deal with offenders that do so. As for industrial use, hemp is an incredible product and should definitely be legal. Industrial hemp plants do not have any near the levels of THC that could get someone high.

As for heroin, cocaine, lsd, etc, I see no need for it to be legal in any way.

[joshtpa]

IMMTS,
How does that pertain? I know people that can drink 10 beers and be absolutely normal and gamble and not lose their life savings. How does that have anything to do with this topic? Nobody is doubting that meth can be handled differently by different people.

Tmevoli,
I actually agree with you in some ways about cannabis. I dont see as much a problem with it at all. It is also relevant to say that most people in prison for drugs are not because of this drug. But for other things.

[immts007]

IMMTS,

you seem to be arguing for the status quo (current system of criminality and incarceration) based on extreme examples of irresponsiblity, tragedy, or lack of self control. I don't think that is a sufficient reason to deny liberties to the people. I was merely pointing out that not all people who use are a burden to society. In fact in my experience, it is quite the opposite.

Why do I feel like I'm being pushed into a position to defend shitty substances like Meth? I think meth is horrible. But the fact that it is illegal doesn't seem to stop the problem, and I think it's pretty hard to demonstrate conclusively that its criminality is a benifit to society. On the other hand I think its pretty obvious that pushing it into the shadows creates a seedy world of shame and crime and voilence that we could all do without. Remove the shame, bring it out of the shadows and deal with the problem in the light. So that goes along with all the other arguments about wasted taxpayer $, wasted space in prisons, wasted lives etc. I also think tmevoli is right. And I would like to end this here. My part in this debate, that is. If you can refrain from misconstruing or misrepresenting my arguments or baiting me further I will.

[joshtpa]

Right, that is what has been happening.

[beisenhauer]

Okay, I'm late to this little party, but I'm going to throw in a radical viewpoint here.

Government is force. That is its nature. What the government does, it does by the use or by the credible threat of force against one's person or property. The proper role of government, and by extension the proper use of the law, follows from the morally proper use of force in a civilized society. The only proper use of force in a civilized society is in retaliation against those who initiate its use. It is proper to defend one's home against an intruder. It is proper for the government to forcibly reclaim property taken by force and return it to its rightful owner. It is proper for the government to incarcerate the thief to prevent him from stealing the property of others. In short, the only proper role of government is the protection of the individual rights (life, liberty, property) of its people, from foreign and domestic threats.

An individual's choice to use drugs, harmful as it may be to themselves, their friends and family, doesn't violate anyone's rights. If, under the influence of said drugs, they take some action which does violate the rights of others, then that action, not the use of drugs, should incur whatever sanction is appropriate to the violation. The government has no more prerogative to forcibly stop someone from using marijuana (or cocaine, or heroin, or Prozac, or HGH), or to punish them after the fact, than it does to stop them from drinking a glass of water. The same goes for the manufacture, possession, transport or sale of the same.

I'll be the last person to argue that mind-altering drugs are not harmful to those who use them and to their loved ones. The faculty of reason is our most basic means of survival and flourishing. A well functioning mind is what makes life not only possible, but worth the living. The abuse of drugs (and for many drugs, any use is abuse) shuts out any possibility of a long, fully rewarding, fully human, life. But for others, whether it be friends, family, neighbors, complete strangers, or the government on their behalf, to interpose force between our faculty of reason and the reality it is designed to comprehend, between our choice and our actions, has precisely the same effect. It subverts our means of survival and flourishing.


Alright, fire away.

[erniebanks]

>> The possession of small amounts of marijuana has been decriminalized in 12 states, meaning offenders might get fined but won't be jailed or given a criminal record. Nonetheless, full legalization of marijuana is hardly likely. In a 2002 CNN/Time Magazine poll, 59% of respondents opposed legalizing marijuana, and 34% favored it.

I think,Holland ?

Maybe not a big deal, but .......

[TheGasman]

I would bet money there are FAR more of those than the junkies you prosecuted.

Are you kidding. Of course there are people who have done meth, crack and heroin that are normal people. But there is no way it out ways the junkies robbing all the houses, breaking into cars,stealing tools etc... I dont know what part of Oregon your from but Ive seen junkies running wild up there too. I have the pleasure of dealing with these idiots everyday and let me tell you its no fun.

[The Rambler]

Amsterdam? Aren't pot and hookers legal over there?

[joshtpa]

Are you kidding. Of course there are people who have done meth, crack and heroin that are normal people. But there is no way it out ways the junkies robbing all the houses, breaking into cars,stealing tools etc... I dont know what part of Oregon your from but Ive seen junkies running wild up there too. I have the pleasure of dealing with these idiots everyday and let me tell you its no fun.

Gasman, its just not worth it.

[immts007]

Gasman, its just not worth it.

He's right, Gasman. And so are you.

[TheGasman]

Gasman, its just not worth it.

Ya, I was thinking the same thing.

[immts007]

Gasman, I apologize for including you in that last bit of (poorly executed) snark. You've done nothing to deserve it.

[TheGasman]

Gasman, I apologize for including you in that last bit of (poorly executed) snark. You've done nothing to deserve it.

No big deal, must be all the drugs.

[mev]

Amsterdam? Aren't pot and hookers legal over there?

Technically it is still illegal, however the laws are not enforced. Hookers are legal.