Mizuno fitting system?

[plugged]

Ken,

This is very intriguing information and, while I am an engineer, I am not familiar enough with the physics of shaft frequency to be able to follow everything on Perfected Golf's website. However, my understanding after looking at the Fitting Chip system is that the type of swing is as important as the swing speed as far as fitting the proper shaft. IOW, where a golfer releases their wrists on the downswing would in turn dictate where the clubhead becomes square. Is this correct? If so, I would be hesitant to select a shaft type based on my swing. While swing speeds remain somewhat consistent throughout a golfers life (until their later years, say past age 60) due to their arm length (and assuming they are following a few basics of the fundamental swing), minor changes in swing mechanics take place all the time. For example, I struggle with early wrist release on my downswing and am currently working to correct that. I would not want to have Shaft A on my clubs when Shaft B would be better suited to my swing after I correct the early release problem.

Also, is there any type of independent testing of the Fitted Chip system by a recognized group or individual that would lend some credence to the claims made by its inventor? As you know, the golf world is replete with a history of "revolutionary" technologies, swing systems, and teaching methods that fizzle after only a short time on the market. I imagine that before I or anyone else on this forum would want to explore this system further, we would want to see some type of validation.

[Ken Smith]

Ken,

Plugged,

Very good questions... As far as the type of swing goes, most golfers attempt to adjust their swing to accomodate their clubs, just as you said you constantly have to work toward correcting an early release. But, if your club fitter is good at his job, he should be able to build a set of clubs to accomodate your swing, not the other way around. That is the very essence of what the Fitting Chip does. When I conduct a swing frequency analysis (SFA) on an individual, I always remind them to take "natural" swings, and not to think about all the adjustments they are always trying to make based on tips. If your natural tendency is to release your wrists early, then release them early and we'll fit the clubs to your release timing. We will frequency tune every club in your bag so that the shaft and clubhead are both straight and square, respectively, at impact. This produces unparalleled control and distance, as long as your swing is repeatable. You do make a very valid point related to consistent swing speeds, but just because your swing speed may be 80mph with a 7-iron, doesn't mean you need a shaft manufacturer's specific flex. In fact, I have fit many seniors with extremely low swing speeds, very well with what the majority of the industry would consider a stiff flex, because they're getting very little help from centrifugal force. In terms of independent testing/validation, the most recent endorsement came from Dr. Jim Suttie. If you're not familiar with him, he is one of the world's top 20 instructors, and has written a number of books related to golfing and fitting parameters. He is currently working on a new book that will cover this topic, as well as his endorsement of the Fitting Chip system. When Lloyd Hackman originally patented this fitting system, he attempted to sell it to Callaway, Nike, Mizuno etc. While all of the large OEMs were excited about the system, and its ability to conduct a dynamic fitting remotely, none could accomodate the time/skill it took to actually blueprint and build the clubs. In the end, Lloyd gave up on all OEMs and went directly to custom fitting shops around the country, at least until we came along. Now Mizuno is attempting to accomplish a watered-down version of the system, but is still relying on the old Brunswick slope and shaft manufacturers' recommendations on flex, which can only accomodate about 10% of the golfing public. In the end, I beleive they will have to repeal their Shaft Optimizer, as it is definitely infringing upon Perfected Golf Group's patent. Ken

[plugged]

Thanks, Ken. I'll do a little more research.

[verse214]

what do you mean by patented the "fitting system"? - do you have the patent number? I'm just curious and would like to use it for more research.

[DJDuran]

the fitting system works wonders for people who dont want to stick with run of the mill TTDG shafts. The best part of the whole thing is that it will kick back 3-5 different shafts, and almost always one frequency of the project x shafts. The numbers it kicks back are:

Swing Tempo- lower the number the slower your transition from top of backswing to beginning of downswing

Toe Down- The amount of flex your putting on the shaft from downswing to "turning it over".

Kick Factor - the "turning over" process of the shaft

Release Factor - extension


based on this, the program kicks back certain shafts. gone are the days of 90+ mph = stiff, 110= x-stiff, or whatever the hell you brought up to believe.

example: Joe swings 105 mph and is currently playing s300's. he has a quick swing tempo but "casts" the club out losing a lot of torque in the shaft. based on that, the program will recommend a lighter weight shaft in the 105-115 range, in a regular flex, that is tipped.

Joes friend Tim only swings 85-90 and currently plays a regular flex. Tims tempo is much slower, but because he keeps his hands ahead of the club longer hes putting too much stress on the shaft. the program will say to bump up to stiff flex or even an x flex.


hell, the second we got it work, i fitted myself. i dont swing fast or hard (ive gotten a couple "your swing looks like ernie els" statements) only 85-90 with irons, 105 with driver, but it kicked back KBS Tour 90 in X. tried it in the mp58 head, and it was beautiful.

[Ken Smith]

what do you mean by patented the "fitting system"? - do you have the patent number? I'm just curious and would like to use it for more research.

Below is a reply I received from Lloyd in reference to my query about the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer. Later in the e-mail he told me to feel free to share it, so here it is. Also, I know the original patent was granted in 1994, but there have been many patents since then. Take a look at the following link for more information:

http://www.google.com/patents/about?...=lloyd+hackman . Ken, Yes, I have heard of the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer and just last week notified them that they were infringing my Patent. The infringement is that they are using an on the club device with an accelerometer to measure club head speed. They also mention the measurement of tempo which is also probably done with the accelerometer and could also be an infringement. I have spoken to their lawyer just last Friday and he is looking into it. From what I know now, they have every thing they need to duplicate what the FitChip does but are use the combo of club head speed and tempo for the selection criteria. If they interpret tempo like most of the industry they are talking the time from take away back to ball impact. You can have the same club head speed and the same tempo time but need a totally different shaft because the pattern within the tempo time is different. Of course that is where FitChip does the job it looks at the pattern of the acceleration to pick the shaft release point and ball impact which is the critical time period to get the shaft back to straight for its best performance. Of course I feel they are still using club head speed as the bases of selection with a minor correction for tempo. The fact that they only recommend OEM shafts I feel leaves out about 60% of the players from being fitted properly. The fact that you need their dedicated club to do the testing also is a limitation. This also indicates to me that by testing only the one club they force every player into using the Brunswick Slope which only fits about 10% of the players at the best.

[verse214]

Below is a reply I received from Lloyd in reference to my query about the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer. Later in the e-mail he told me to feel free to share it, so here it is. Also, I know the original patent was granted in 1994, but there have been many patents since then. Take a look at the following link for more information:

The reason why I asked for a patent number is because there can be a ton of patents out there pertaining to a golf club with a device attached - there are probably even a few that even specify "accelerometers". United States Patent US3226704 is one of them - patented in 1965 "Golf Club Accelerometer". I'm pretty sure this isn't your friend Lloyd's as his was in 1994. My point is that just because it's an accelerometer on a golf club doesn't necessarily mean that Mizuno is infringing upon your friend's patent. Plus, if your claims of Mizuno having a 'watered down' system are true, then you have nothing to worry about as that would most certainly imply that there is no infringement since Mizuno's system would not contain the characteristics of your device that make it "patentable". A few more patents that are related to this - all from the 60's . If your friend's patent is not in application status anymore, I don't see how Mizuno, with the millions of dollars they have to spend on patent lawyers, would not be able to patent their own device (which is currently patent pending). US2942456 - Acceleration responsive devices US2986615 - Acceleration responsive device US3106403 - Club swing momentum indicator US3113781 - Swingable practice club with pivoted sound-producing member [...] There are many more. Sorry, I just didn't like how this thread was interrupted with claims that Mizuno's system is inferior to a system that you just happen to be using to turn a profit. It reminds me of the Rap/Hip-Hop industry.. throwing shots at the throne to boost oneself closer to the top...

[Fit-dreamer]

In my golf career, I have been trained in many club fitting systems from most of the top manufacturers and generic fitting systems.  I have worked retail golf (nationwide chain), major equipment manufacturer, private (TPC courses) and country clubs open to the public.  I also fit golf balls based on spin rates generated by clubs/swings.

I used a Taylormade Tour Burner (original dimpled model) 7* driver with a 44" X-100 steel shaft until the late 1995.

My fitting analysis by 2 major manufacturers as well as independent fitters & PGA pros has always been:  "comfortably" in X-stiff shafts.  Irons, DG X100 or Rifle 6.5's.  Woods: X-stiff, tip stiff (even 2X).  I never felt comfortable with those clubs.  They felt too stiff.

I always believed there had to be another way of fitting golfers.  I took a shaft load/unload profile test.  The data showed that my shaft load/unload profile was almost identical to Davis Love III.  (I think it was a True Temper test?).  Still, those clubs just never felt right.  Too stiff.

I ran into a fellow who had a different fitting system.  It was more a visual & seat of the pants fitting system.  He had a staff bag with about 40 clubs in them (4 and 9 irons)....all various frequencies.  I hit balls for several hours one day, on my own.  I ended up with 2 specific frequencies (4 and 9 irons) that produced the straightest flight, best ability to work the ball, gained distance, and most importantly felt comfortable to me.  I thought it was a sham, to be honest.  I had a 2nd test session, several months later, thinking physical fitness or practice (or lack thereof) could influence the test.  To my surprise, I selected the EXACT SAME FREQUENCIES. Again, I was still skeptical......Several months later, I took the test again.  This time, I was lined up on the range next to a Sr. PGA tour player, taking the same test, and in our discussion, I heard of a few names (that I would be surprised to hear) who have taken the same tests and changed to the shafts after the tests were concluded.  After hitting balls for several hours, again EXACT SAME FREQUENCIES for a 3rd time.  I was surprised that I could actually "feel" the difference between 5cpm.  Of course, I didn't know it at that time.  He even gave me the same shaft frequencies more than once, saying they were different, to make sure "I wasn't cheating".

This person had no allegiance to any manufacturer or shaft or shaft maker.  I bought my own shafts, took them to him and he reshafted my clubs.  I paid my fitting fee.

End result:  my shafts started at REGULAR flex in the wedges and progressed to LADIES flex in my 2 iron.

I don't have the numbers from my shaft test.  And Ken's fitting system sounds like it quantifies the things I "feel" during a golf swing.  I am in southern california and if there is a fitting system like that around here, I'd like to get my new irons fitted with new shafts.  The only issue I am facing is finding standard steel men's shaft diameters (.580/.600) in a ladies flex for my longer irons.

Looking for my perfect shafts.  Need help.