S-n-T + Driver = low launch angle?

[Chief Broom]

So I've been working on a gradual swing change to something like a S-n-T (Stack and Tilt) swing. All things considered the change has been beneficial and I'm seeing gradual improvement in my overall ball striking (my single biggest problem: consistantcy with good ball striking). Right now is a tough time of year to gauge your game because conditions are so bad. My home course is the local muni and they don't overseed anything. They just paint the greens and tee boxes and call it even. While this isn't bad for your game it does make scoring dificult due to the rock hard and lightning fast greens (dorment bermuda). Still I feel good about the progress I'm making.

Anyway I was given some gift cards to Dick's Sporting Goods so I decided on purchasing a new driver. I scheduled a fitting and spent an hour in their simulator hitting first my old driver and then new drivers. My numbers were in line with what I've been doing for a while (150mph average ball speed w/driver), but my launch angle numbers were low. Averaging between 6-8 degrees! The pro put me in a higher lofted driver (my old stick was a 9 degree Dymo), but even with 10.5 degrees I was still averaging about 8 degrees at launch. He told me that ~12 degrees would be ideal and that would really maximize carry (to the tune of ~250yds at ~150mph ball speed). He didn't want to go any higher in loft with the driver due to creating more trouble down the line (something i agreed with) and instead told me to work on tee height and the like in order to launch the ball higher. I've always tended to tee the ball on the low side and I did a Bridgestone Ball Fitting at the local First Tee driving range last Fall and he told me basically the same thing. That I needed to tee the ball higher in order to get more launch angle (and he recommended the Bridgestone e5+, which is their higher trajectory ball).

So I've always launched the ball low. I wonder though if S-n-T is also contributing to this problem? I really focus on turning my lead shoulder down to start my swing and then keeping my weight forward over the ball. With the driver doing this I'll occassionally hit the ball fat and sky it. It makes me think I'm really hitting down at the ball doing this and that would naturally deloft my driver and lower my launch angle. While this isn't a terrible problem if it results in a more consistant ball flight, I do want to maximize my distance potential with the driver for my swing speed. Maybe I should set up over the ball but with some spine tilt away from the target at address to promote a more upward strike with the driver? The one thing I don't want to do is to let my self sway backwards off the ball and away from the target on take-a-way, a flaw I've always struggled with that greatly increases inconsistantcy and a nasty slice.

[kfowler]

Couple of thoughts

- You could also look at shaft options. Some have much higher launch angles than others.
- As far as S&T;, I don't believe if you do it correctly that it's a cause. I think there maybe something else going on that's contributing. Personally I've seen a better more consistent ball flight with the drive using S&T.; I actually had the same concern as you at first. My only issues are when I lose balance and have some huge over the top swing.
- One criticism I have with the S&T; book is that it doesn't specifically address the driver. I would have liked to have seen more detail there.

I'm sure some of the other can address this better. I'll follow along.

[Leftygolfer]

I just read some stuff online about the S&T; and the driver swing. I can't remember what site but it was an article with the two guys and I found it by googling S&T.; Also, from everything I have read you should actually hit it higher because of the open club face hitting a push draw.

[uttexas]

....... I have read you should actually hit it higher because of the open club face hitting a push draw.

That is correct.

A quick fix would be to tee the ball a bit further forward and a bit higher. Without seeing a video of your driver swing, I'll guess that you aren't extending you spine and pushing your gluts (hips) forward enough at impact. These moves shallow out your swing so that the attack angle on the ball is less severe. You are probably "getting away with it" with your irons--descending blow instead of the ascending strike you want with the driver.

[iacas]

I'm going to quote some of the Golf Digest pieces and add a little commentary after that:

1. http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...ndtilt?slide=9 2. http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...dtilt?slide=10 3. http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...dtilt?slide=11

Source: Golf Digest 1. Keep the handle forward to hit a draw One piece of advice you hear a lot for the driver is to sweep the ball off the tee. Golfers try to do this by hanging back and releasing the clubhead past their hands. This causes the swing path to veer to the left (N), with the clubhead cutting across the ball. The result is a pull or a pull-slice. For a draw, the club must approach the ball from the inside, and the way to do that is to keep the handle in front of the clubhead through impact. Set up with the handle forward (Y), and maintain that relationship by shifting continuously to your front side coming down. The club will swing in to out, causing the ball to start right and draw. 2. Release the forward tilt of the hips Another popular tip that golfers take too far is: "Stay in your address posture." The human body has a limited turning capacity when the hips are tilted toward the ball, as they are at address (think of how the hip turn is restricted on the backswing). If you try to stay in that posture through impact (N), the body stops turning, which kills momentum and clubhead speed. You have to release that forward tilt by thrusting your hips upward (Y). It's a power move you see in other athletes, such as baseball hitters and long jumpers. 3. Flex your spine away from the target on the downswing The upward thrusting of the hips on the downswing is coupled with a forward flexing of the upper body. The top half of the spine stretches back, tilting away from the target. When the spine goes back and the hips release forward, the body has great rotational power. The arms are stretched and straightened through impact. The rear end should feel "tucked under" the lower back at the finish. This is a true release: The body releasing from the forward tilt established at address.

1. 2. 3.

I wonder though if S-n-T is also contributing to this problem?

It's unlikely to be something else (at least fully - you're well below where you should be hitting the ball - 8 is really low). That said, it's not "SnT," but rather what slightly wrong variation of SnT you're doing. SnT hits the ball a little higher, generally (I say generally because the shaft being ahead offsets the open clubface at impact slightly to somewhat neutralize the height gained just by having the clubface open and, say, the shaft back instead of forward).

With the driver doing this I'll occassionally hit the ball fat and sky it.

It sounds as if you need more of tip 2 from above. I doubt your hips are truly pushing forward like they need to be. More hip pushing, more jumping.

Maybe I should set up over the ball but with some spine tilt away from the target at address to promote a more upward strike with the driver?

No. Don't do that.

More than half of the PGA Tour strike down with their drivers. That stuff about "hit up on the ball" is great if you don't swing very fast like most people who won't buy a 12 degree driver like they need for their swing speed... it's a way to get them closer to their ideal launch conditions. You're at 150 MPH ball speed - you're swinging just fine to come into the ball pretty much near level.

Also, from everything I have read you should actually hit it higher because of the open club face hitting a push draw.

Yeah, that too. Again, I think more of #2 will help you.

[Chief Broom]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'll definitely incorporate more upward hip thrust through impact and see if that helps.

another problem I'm still having is learning to adjust to hitting a draw. It's hard for me to trust it enough to actually aim left of my desired target line, and this indecision no doubt hinders my ability to fully commit to S-n-T and each time I hit driver.