Some interesting statistics

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Hollister

Ah, no worries.

I deleted a sentence like "as a higher handicapper (me), you have to choose the right tees to have a chance to play well". My official handicap is 28, I play between 18 and 28 - no time and no lust for tourneys.

I am over in Europe and played a PGA tour prepared course once. I never ever had so much roll. And I never had to hit it three times out of the rough to get closer to the 30 feet away flag. Remember Phils "wrist-gate". Or those carpet like greens.

Course conditions matter, right. Just take my 70+ year old uncle. Distance off the tee sucks - but the course is not that long and has a few shortcuts and overrated holes. But he hits it straight, gets to the greens and boy does he know every hump on that stimp 10 greens. And no, no bunckers for him, no water hazards, no bio hazards - but easy to manage rough. And yes, it has to be dry for him to play his best golf. No roll in the off-season.

Point is, our day-to-day courses might be a little easier to play - stimp 10, less roll, and what not. But you can play a decent round and go low, because you know where you are.

Looking at putting, thats an area where everybody can be excellent. Around the green maybe, too. Iron play is a little harder to get very good at. Distance and accuracy off the tee (yes, both), might be the hardest to get for 10+ handicappers.

Looking at: Again, the old mantra: Hit long, hit fairways, up the GIRs, no 3-puts.

I do not get much over 210 yards off the tee, hence I have a longer iron or hybrid to get to the green, which equals less proximity to the flag. Same as the pros. Hitting the rough off the tee makes that task impossible - GIR go down. The vicious cycle everybody knows. So the mantra for me is: hit fairways, up the GIRs - the rest will follow.

Since your handicap was much better than mine (time before it said bad), I am only wondering if that darn mantra is the same for 10+ handicaps like you?

The key for me to shoot sub 80 scores is to hit my driver a decent distance off the box... I don't have to be in the fairway.  But I need to hit it fairly well and keep it in play (no tree balls, hazards or OB tee shots).  If I can hit my driver consistently - with distance... Then I give my self a shot at hitting the green.

In particular, when I can hit drive of distance, 250 average, to 280 well hit - sometimes longer; coupled with the course lengths I play (~ 6,500 to 6,800)... I give myself an excellent chance to score. The strongest part of my game is my short irons 8i down to 54* wedge... Especially full swings with these clubs.  But I feel comfortable hitting really any iron...  So the more I keep the ball in play (not necessarily in the fairway) - and if I give myself a shorter iron in... Then I know I can put the ball on the green - or near the hole.  And if I miss the green - I'll still be close to the green as my misses with these clubs are not bad.

When I struggle off the tee (not very often - I'm typically a decent driver of the golf ball), is when I really struggle.  As of my last 20+ rounds... The biggest deficit in my game is with my 3W and 3H (I took it out of the bag) off the deck.  In particular on Par 5's.  There are a lot of times when I'll have less than 250yds into the green for my 2nd shot - but I do stupid things trying to go for it with my 3W - and end up 50yds left or right behind trees or in trouble.  Then mix in a few other brain farts (3 putt, duffed chip here or there) and that is why I'm a 4/5 handicap and not scratch.  Once I get the confidence with my longer clubs... I think I could easily drop 2 to 3 strokes on average.

[Hollister]

Thanks for adding up to the good ole mantra: Stay out of trouble.

Pro stats clear show that rough or other bad lies gives them a harder chance to score. A course in perfect shape does not help that much when they are too far off the flag.

Re. drives, that what I figured out long - get that driver going. Did not make it to work reliable - 3W to 210 in the fairway and I was happy, 240 in the rough or OB was no good.

In the end, ball striking is what matters and keeps you out of trouble. Then the putting game where nearly everybody should be able to get good at. Thanks to aimpoint... :D

[bjwestner]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Interesting find.  Some of that info relates directly to other stuff posted recently (like the GIR --> HDCP) but it's nice to see more thorough info like that.

Do you know, specifically, what the "iron accuracy" numbers are?  Is it a percentage, perhaps a percentage of how frequently you hit your target with irons?  The chart doesn't really specify.

And, I kind of disagree with you on the putting aspect of it.  I don't think the chart says that it's not that important, but it is just not a very good indicator of anything.  It's easy to say "oh, the difference between a 91 and a 75 is only 5 putts, so obviously putting importance diminishes" however that doesn't take into account GIR.  The 91 shooter is chipping onto the green prior to his first putt 16 times a round, whereas the 75 shooter is only doing that 8 times a round.

He's missing 8 greens and only averaging 3 over par, so he's getting up and down about half the time (figuring in that birdie or two).  Even if you are good with your wedges, up and downs involve a lot of 5,6,7 foot putts you have to occasionally make.

91 guy is basically 2-putting every green even though he's chipping onto most of them.

putts/GIR would be a much better way to compare the importance of putting, I think.

Regarding the putting.....I was shocked too but I saw several charts/stats recently, and, although they were just general charts, they showed the average stats for a certain handicap.  It showed that a scratch golfer or zero hc is averaging right around 30 putts per round where a 20 hc is only at 37 or 38 putts per round.  What I took from it was that the higher your handicap is, the less important putting is compared to ball striking.  I guess this makes sense when you think of it like this:  a 20 hc can work on putting extensively but will lower their hc faster by improving ball striking first and then working on putting.....the better someone gets the more important putting is (i.e. many pga tour events come down to who putts the best since there is not much variance in ball striking).

What I am finding is that I am having a very hard time hitting greens in regulation in the winter time.  I know for a fact that I am a better ball striker now than I was last summer, right after I first started playing golf.  The problem is that my GIR numbers are not increasing in line with my improvement in driving, iron play, and ball striking in general.  This is frustrating the hell out of me and I am wondering if I am playing from tees that are too far back when I play in the cold weather.

As I have mentioned before, I can tell how my ball striking is by seeing how many strokes other than putts I had in a round of golf.  I count putts as any stroke I used with my putter.  So even if I am just off the green but still used my putter, then I count that as a putt.  So any stroke that I took without my putter does not count as a putt.  The best rounds I have ever played had me at right around 50 strokes other than putts.  For some reason I cannot seem to get this number down at all, even though I am making better contact with the ball and am just in general much better at ball striking than I was before.

I know that my iron play has come a long way.  When I first started playing last summer, par 3's were my least favorite.  I had trouble hitting them off the tee and those were the holes that I did the worst on versus par 4's or par 5's.  This has now completely changed though as I play par 3's much better than I play par 4's or par 5's.  It does not surprise me that I have improved my play on par 3's, because I have gotten better at ball striking with my irons and my short game has improved a lot since I started.  Why is that not transitioning to improved scores on par 4's and par 5's though?  Any suggestions?

Here is an example.....a few weeks back I shot an 86 on my "home" course at my club.  The weather was in the 40's and it was during winter.  My home course is a par 72, rated 70.5 with a slope of 128 and I played from tees that play 6333 yards.  There are 4 par 3's, 4 par 5's, and 10 par 4's.  I had 35 putts and 51 strokes other than putts.  I had 6 FIR and 4 GIR.  I had 5 pars, 12 bogeys, and 1 double bogey.  I par'd all of the par 3's, so my score was 12.  On the other 14 holes, my score was 72, which equals 5.142 strokes per hole.  That's on pace to shoot just under a 93.  If my ball striking has improved along with my iron play, why is the improvement showing only on par 3's?  Is it because I am playing from tees that are too far back in this cold weather?

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

The key for me to shoot sub 80 scores is to hit my driver a decent distance off the box... I don't have to be in the fairway.  But I need to hit it fairly well and keep it in play (no tree balls, hazards or OB tee shots).  If I can hit my driver consistently - with distance... Then I give my self a shot at hitting the green.

This is exactly the same with me.  I've only broken 80 once, but the difference was my tee shots.  Everything else was average.  My best days are the same way.

[Hollister]

Well, it is all in the statistics. Just think about your last round and work your way back from the flag to the tee.

Pros make around 35% puts when just 10-15 feet away from the flag, at 20-25 feet it is down to around 15%. How good can your shot into the green be, if you are in the bunker, rough or another bad lie?

Do you have to hit a 6i+ into the green? Well, just assume we are 150-175 yards away from the green. The best pro gets it to 22 feet average proximity, most pros land it at 26 feet. Classic two put scenario. Or for us weekend golfers an occasional 3 put.

So, that leaves us with the driver. Well, we all need our best days (and best weather) to place a 280 yard shot (including lot of roll) in the middle of the fairway...

The above numbers are tour pro stats. I doubt that we weekend golfers get close on a regular basis - unless we are single digits handicaps and have a good day.

Again, best solution for most weekend golfers is to play the shorter mens tees in order to have a chance to show your best golf. Ball-striking seems to be the best time spend practicing. Stay out of trouble and get the ball close to the flag. For putting, check out aimpoint or similar methods (if there are any).

[StatsCoach]

Originally Posted by bjwestner

Regarding the putting.....I was shocked too but I saw several charts/stats recently, and, although they were just general charts, they showed the average stats for a certain handicap.  It showed that a scratch golfer or zero hc is averaging right around 30 putts per round where a 20 hc is only at 37 or 38 putts per round.  What I took from it was that the higher your handicap is, the less important putting is compared to ball striking.  I guess this makes sense when you think of it like this:  a 20 hc can work on putting extensively but will lower their hc faster by improving ball striking first and then working on putting.....the better someone gets the more important putting is (i.e. many pga tour events come down to who putts the best since there is not much variance in ball striking).

What I am finding is that I am having a very hard time hitting greens in regulation in the winter time.  I know for a fact that I am a better ball striker now than I was last summer, right after I first started playing golf.  The problem is that my GIR numbers are not increasing in line with my improvement in driving, iron play, and ball striking in general.  This is frustrating the hell out of me and I am wondering if I am playing from tees that are too far back when I play in the cold weather.

As I have mentioned before, I can tell how my ball striking is by seeing how many strokes other than putts I had in a round of golf.  I count putts as any stroke I used with my putter.  So even if I am just off the green but still used my putter, then I count that as a putt.  So any stroke that I took without my putter does not count as a putt.  The best rounds I have ever played had me at right around 50 strokes other than putts.  For some reason I cannot seem to get this number down at all, even though I am making better contact with the ball and am just in general much better at ball striking than I was before.

I know that my iron play has come a long way.  When I first started playing last summer, par 3's were my least favorite.  I had trouble hitting them off the tee and those were the holes that I did the worst on versus par 4's or par 5's.  This has now completely changed though as I play par 3's much better than I play par 4's or par 5's.  It does not surprise me that I have improved my play on par 3's, because I have gotten better at ball striking with my irons and my short game has improved a lot since I started.  Why is that not transitioning to improved scores on par 4's and par 5's though?  Any suggestions?

Here is an example.....a few weeks back I shot an 86 on my "home" course at my club.  The weather was in the 40's and it was during winter.  My home course is a par 72, rated 70.5 with a slope of 128 and I played from tees that play 6333 yards.  There are 4 par 3's, 4 par 5's, and 10 par 4's.  I had 35 putts and 51 strokes other than putts.  I had 6 FIR and 4 GIR.  I had 5 pars, 12 bogeys, and 1 double bogey.  I par'd all of the par 3's, so my score was 12.  On the other 14 holes, my score was 72, which equals 5.142 strokes per hole.  That's on pace to shoot just under a 93.  If my ball striking has improved along with my iron play, why is the improvement showing only on par 3's?  Is it because I am playing from tees that are too far back in this cold weather?

The question you pose has a very simple answer:  The 2nd and subsequent shots you have on the Par 4 and 5's are dependent upon the 1st shot (tee shot).  In math/stats, we call this a dependent variable- it depends upon the prior.  Now granted, on the Par 3's the 2nd and subsequent shots are also dependent upon the tee shot, but you have a perfectly teed and level lie with the shot into the green with the Par 3.  On the Par 4 and 5's, since the iron (2nd) shot is dependent upon the tee shot, you might be in the rough, behind a tree, awkward lie, etc. which is producing a bigger variance in your score.  In other words, there are other variables to consider with the Par 4 and 5's.

A stat that you would want to look at is the average distance of the Par 3's vs. the average distance into the greens of the fairways you hit.  Of the 6 fairways you hit, what was the average distance into those greens?  Of the 4 greens you hit, how many were Par 3's?  What was the average distance of the Par 3's?

If the average distance of your Par 3's were say 105 yards and the average distance into the greens of the 6 fairways you hit were say 150 yards, then there's your answer.  As with all stats, the answers are there, you just have to interpret them the correct way.  And, vice versa, it is very easy to mis-interpret stats...

I hope this helps!!??

[bjwestner]

Originally Posted by StatsCoach

The question you pose has a very simple answer:  The 2nd and subsequent shots you have on the Par 4 and 5's are dependent upon the 1st shot (tee shot).  In math/stats, we call this a dependent variable- it depends upon the prior.  Now granted, on the Par 3's the 2nd and subsequent shots are also dependent upon the tee shot, but you have a perfectly teed and level lie with the shot into the green with the Par 3.  On the Par 4 and 5's, since the iron (2nd) shot is dependent upon the tee shot, you might be in the rough, behind a tree, awkward lie, etc. which is producing a bigger variance in your score.  In other words, there are other variables to consider with the Par 4 and 5's.

A stat that you would want to look at is the average distance of the Par 3's vs. the average distance into the greens of the fairways you hit.  Of the 6 fairways you hit, what was the average distance into those greens?  Of the 4 greens you hit, how many were Par 3's?  What was the average distance of the Par 3's?

If the average distance of your Par 3's were say 105 yards and the average distance into the greens of the 6 fairways you hit were say 150 yards, then there's your answer.  As with all stats, the answers are there, you just have to interpret them the correct way.  And, vice versa, it is very easy to mis-interpret stats...

I hope this helps!!??

Wow, thank you for that post.  It was very interesting.  While I definitely agree with what you laid out, I do not know what my numbers are for my second shots on par 4's and 5's.  Even if I did, I do not believe that it would be as much help, yet.  I can tell you with 100% certainty that my ball striking is simply not consistent enough for me to 1) measure these numbers, and 2) use them to help my game just yet.  Here is an example of what I mean:  yesterday I used driver to tee off of the 10th hole at my country club.  It's a par 4 that is about 430 yards but it does not play as long as the green is many feet below the teeing ground.  I hit a solid drive that ended up just in the left rough.  I had about 180 to the green.  There is water behind the green too.  I hit a 5 iron but did not make good contact at all and the ball went about 30 yards.  I then had to get around a tree for my next shot.  I decided to hit a 7 iron but had to try to keep it low.  I again, duffed the shot.  I finally got around the tree and hit a AW from about 100 yards to 20 feet on the green.  I two-putted and carded a 6, all because of inconsistent ball striking.  The very next hole is a par 3 over water.  It was playing about 150 or a little less.  I hit an 8 iron very hard with my tee shot.  The ball ended up 6 feet from the cup and on the green.  I made a downhill putt for birdie and carded a 2, all because of a great iron shot.

I end up hitting some great shots and I also end up giving shots away.  If I could find a genie in a bottle and could improve any part of my game to a pga tour level, it would be my ball striking......it is improving but as you know, nothing happens overnight and it's taking time.  I have not been able to go to the range hardly at all during the week during the winter either which has not helped things....I'm hoping that now with warmer weather and daylight savings time that I can do this more as I am sure that it will help me improve.