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Everything posted by johnclayton1982
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Will a mallet style putter help me...?
johnclayton1982 replied to amac's topic in Clubs, Grips, Shafts, Fitting
A few thoughts/questions on improving your putting. First, totally agree with Iacas. I got fitted for my Edel when I was about a 18 handicap in 2010-11. Like you, I was displeased. I used a Taylormade Spider Mallet and a Odyssey 2-ball mallet before "returning" to my Edel about two years ago. It hasn't left since. The bottom line is that a putter that fits you is what you need. Its not the putter. Don't make the mistake I did. The putter feels great in my hands and promotes a solid setup since it is fit to your stance / height, etc... Most importantly, you aim it very well (most likely). Its not the arrow, its the indian. What is your preshot routine like with the putter? What do you think about? How do you aim (i.e. do you see a line in your head, do you try to calculate it consciously, is it all feel, etc..) ? Can you briefly describe how you practice with the putter? How many days a week? How many putts? What sort of drills do you do? Do you ever use rails or clips or a track? Do you practice with a metronome? Do you ever video yourself? Finally (and most importantly), are you using a consistent ball? Do you make sure you have the same ball for all practicing and all shots on the course? (or at least a similar ball). Pelz (I know, people here aren't a huge fan) has done tests with his "perfy" robots that there can be as much as a *Four* foot spread on long putts with different balls with the same force. Do you make sure to use the same ball every time? It was very hard for me to develop good "feel" when I switched the ball up constantly. While I got a lot out of the Pelz book, this book is the best I've read on putting (even though somewhat old): http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Putting-Approach-Golfs-Within/dp/0809224402 -
My first time in contention......and I blew it
johnclayton1982 replied to heggis's topic in Golf Talk
I hadn't seen the "enjoy pressure" thread, but I do something very similar, and I'd tweak it slightly: "be thankful for pressure". The Dalai Lama teaches that we should thank the aggressive and hostile people in our lives, because they give us an opportunity to practice being patient and tolerant. I'm certainly not to that level, but the only thing I've found that helps me deal with pressure effectively is to be thankful for it, i.e. "I'm really happy I have this pressure b/c it gives me an opportunity to practice under pressure". This was the only thing that worked for me to play well under pressure. Think "thank god I have this opportunity to learn". -
How do I get more swing speed?
johnclayton1982 replied to Satch's topic in Instruction and Playing Tips
Quote: Seems reasonable. But, to me, the average golfer who is worried about their swing speed has bigger fish to fry. For somebody like you - a very good amateur - and even pros, there usually isn't any power hiding in there somewhere. The fundamentals are solid, so the only remaining missing piece is muscle. Fix Your Body Fix Your Swing is a great book. You should buy it and do the dirty dozen every day. I've been doing it for a while. It makes you longer and there is no question about it. One thing that really helped me is the dot drill from School of Golf. Draw a dot on a golf ball. Put impact tape on a driver and draw a dot on the center. Practice, very, very slowly, while looking at the ball (its easy if you cheat and look at the club) touching dot to dot. When you first start, its hard. After about two weeks of doing this 50 times a day, you start to get a "sixth sense" of where your clubface is. Its hard to describe exactly but it makes golf easier when you get a real sense of where the clubface is in your swing. See how many times you can touch the dot exactly in a row. The combination of these two things (flexibility/strength training every day and the dot drill every day) over about 8 months made me much longer. Of course, I was going the range and taking lessons etc... but I really believe these two things were the main contributors. Currently working on a 88 to 75 post and these two things were really important to my improvement. EDIT: Sorry, didn't realize this was a three page thread. Meant for the OP. -
How do you like the X2 hot Driver? I need a new driver, and have my eye on it.
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Quote: I have no idea why there is an argument either, There isn't really. What I actually wrote isn't being debated. What I actually wrote was that an 8 handicap couldn't beat a pro one hole under the pressure of a PGA Tour event on a PGA Tour course under the bright lights. That was subsequently changed to both "any amateur" (not an 8 handicap) and "on my local course" (so, not in a PGA event then). Quote: I hope you people realize that golf amateurs have ACTUALLY BEATEN ENTIRE FIELDS OF PRO GOLFERS IN TOURNAMENT. They just cant accept monetary prizes for winning because theyre amateur status and not pro status. *Sigh*. Obviously "an amateur" can beat a pro one hole. Justin Rose got T-3 at the British as an amateur. What I said was that that particular poster can't, who is an 8 handicap. That isn't the same thing. Not sure why I bother, but to restate it: I agree that an amateur golfer (i.e. 8 handicap etc.) playing at his local against a pro on a Saturday with no pressure and no reason for the pro to try could, theoretically, win a hole. I think its unlikely, but possible. I said this in the first post pretty explicitly. I contend that such a golfer has no chance to win a hole against a pro on a PGA Course with the pressure of a gallery and a real incentive for winning/losing such that the pro tries as hard as he can to win every hole.
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Quote: But that's exactly what he said. "Could you beat him on one hole? No chance in hell". That's actually assanine. So he's saying a pro never makes bogey and eagles any time he has to in stroke play. Think McFly....think. Actually, that's not at all what I said. What I said was this: Quote: Could you beat Rory one hole with no pressure on your home course? Almost certainly not, but maybe if you tried a hundred times. Could you beat him one hole in front of 600 people with your future riding on every shot? No chance in hell, IMO. If you are going to quote me and call me "asinine", quote me accurately. You don't play your game with your weekend buddies under those conditions. You seem to think you standing on the first tee at your local with your buddies and you standing on the first tee playing match play against Rory with a 600 person gallery and your future on the line are the same. They are not. Is it literally, physically impossible for you to hit a hole in one and get a hole? I suppose not. But the people in this thread are not giving nearly enough credit to the professionals and the effects of pressure. Quote: So he's saying a pro never makes bogey and eagles any time he has to in stroke play. Think McFly....think. No, what I'm saying is that if you were put on a PGA Tour course tomorrow with millions of people watching you and your future on the line you wouldn't do better than bogey on any hole. Thats what I'm saying. I'm not saying the pro would be perfect, I'm saying *you* would be *much* worse. Just out of curiosity, whats the highest level of athletic endeavor you've attempted?
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Quote: So to find out your "normal" distance, is the best way to go to the range, get a rangefinder, hit about 40 balls with a specific club, record the distance, and use the average (removing outliers)? Warren Buffet has a saying when talking about financial statements - I'd rather be approximately right than precisely wrong - and I think its a good one for setting the distances on your irons. I think you are significantly over-thinking it. I think its better to think in terms of bands than exact numbers. For example, if a flag is at the back of the green 145, I'm hitting 9. If its at the front of the green 145, I'm hitting 8. I'm looking at my target and feeling that shot - its not precise like you are making it out to be. I like to think of it in terms of minimums and maximums. "My 8 iron will never go shorter than 143ish and will never go longer than 155ish". That's more useful to me than "150". I like to try to think about the flag in relation to the biggest part of the green to miss to. Very rarely, and usually only with PW or below, am I trying to hit it right at the flag yardage, so knowing exactly how far my irons go isn't much use to me. I think its more useful than this precise average method you are proposing to hit, say, 40 8 irons and measure the band (shortest good contact was X, longest good contact was Y). This will help you make better decisions on the course IMO. For example, if you tell me its 140 to clear the bunker in front, 155 to the pin, and 158 to the back, and being over is death, I feel good hitting 8 b/c I know the max yardage is about the pin. If you tell me its 149 to the pin, 153 over the back and being over is death, I'm not hitting 8 b/c it might go that far. I think thinking in absolutes of any type on a golf course is generally a bad idea. Also be careful measuring range balls. Depending on what balls you game, they can be quite a bit shorter.
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Quote: You're way off. Did you see De Jonge shoot 80? Did you see John Daly make a 12 on a par 4? Of course I could beat a pro on one hole. Not always, if the pro went bogey free then I'd have to hope my birdie came on a hole he shot par or worse. Impossible? Hardly. They weren't playing an 8 handicap in match play, they were trying to win a stroke play competition. if you played them in match play they'd crush you. They'd never hit driver. We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this, but if you and De Jonge tee'd it up, even on the day he shot 80, on whatever course he shot 80 on, you'd get smashed. Period. In tennis, they are playing against me. If I played Sampras in his prime, do you really think he'd double fault like he does against Agassi? Of course not. He'd play differently and I couldn't win a point. You can't say "Durant shot 4 for 12 against the Spurs last night, and I shot 9 for 11 in my Rec League, so obviously I could score on him in one-on-one". If De Jonge had significant money (or some other reason to care) on the line and played *against you* (as opposed to a field of 200 professional golfers he needs to play great to beat) he'd crush you into dust. Period. We may have to agree to disagree here. If you honestly think you could take De Jonge in one hole with him trying to play you instead of the field, and that you could do it with the pressure of your future and a 600 person gallery on you, you should be getting ready for Pinehurst not posting on this board.
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Quote: Are pro golfers good? Yes.. Could a single digit golfer beat Rory? Not usually, but he would if Rory played the same way he did that day he walked off the course.. Heck, I bet that if I played a pro I would be able to win one hole by luck.. He hits it in the water on a par 3 and I hit it on the green. Low percentage yes, impossible? No.. I'm not trying to be condescending, and I don't know anything about you, so correct me if my assumption is wrong, but I'm going to assume that you've never competed in a sport at very close to the highest level. Could you beat Rory on one hole in an 18 hole match at your home course with no pressure, no gallery, and no money on the line? Maybe. I don't know. In my post, I acknowledged this. I could hit around with the pro tennis players and not look out of place. Nobody would have said "whose that guy" if I was doing drills with them or working out with them. I could even stay with them in little mini-games. The hard part is when the lights come on. The hard part is when you've been working four or five years and you get a sponsor exemption into the Hartford and you gotta do it right now. Not tomorrow. Right now. Thats when its hard. It is not all that difficult to play at a high level if you've got the training in. Its very difficult to produce your best golf/tennis whatever when you must produce it. Thats the hard part. Could you beat Rory one hole with no pressure on your home course? Almost certainly not, but maybe if you tried a hundred times. Could you beat him one hole in front of 600 people with your future riding on every shot? No chance in hell, IMO. You don't get many chances. I played in two ATP tour events. My knees were shaking so bad I couldn't move. I got crushed twice and I never got another invitation. You don't just waltz out there like your playing a preseason exhibition match against the community college up the street. Thats when it gets hard. Thats when the pros have another gear. I dont know if its genetics or better training or what, but its a different world when the bright lights come on and I'm not sure how to explain how intimidating it is until you experience it. Fair enough to you if you've been there, but you need to keep this in mind IMO. The setting really matters. I'm not in awe of the professional's game because they hit it high and straight. I'm a four-capper and I can hit it pretty good. I'm in awe of their game because they can play their best when it matters most. Thats really, really, really, really hard. All just IMO.
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I play with a lot of the xHot products throughout the bag and I am very pleased with them. The Irons deliver good control and nice power. No complaints really. The default true temper speed shafts are lightweight but still hefty enough to keep the face square. The X-hots are a really nice set of clubs. I play a alot, and they've held up very well (woods too) under the beating. They still look nice and have had no problems despite 100 degree Louisiana sun baking the paint and using them alot. They look a bit worn but still closer to new than used. I have zero complaints. I also really like the way the irons look at address, inspiring alot of confidence. The long irons especially I've found really solid. The n14 came out after the original xhots and it has a lot fewer options. The woods are made from a different material. Beyond that, not sure. I don't think you can go wrong with a fitted set of xhot irons and hybrids. Just IMO, of course.
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That's the point. Its a silly argument for me to say "they're awesome", you say "c'mon", i say "no really", you say "c'mon". I was good. I played #2 at a D1 school for three years. I won the state title twice. I went to Bolletieri. I gave it a legitimate shot. I didn't come close. And the guy who beat me without breaking sweat didn't come close either. For me, that shows they are pretty good. I choose to take from that that the pros are on another planet, not that I stunk. Obviously its tough to convince someone of this. Obviously Federer loses points and matches, but not to people like the OP (great post, btw). Now, you can call it "worship" or make fun of me for it or whatever, but I tried very very hard and spent alot of my family's money trying to do it and I didn't even come close. Therefore, I have a tremendous amount of respect for those who have accomplished that goal. I didn't go empty handed, I got a degree from an SEC school and that really helped me, but yes, I have a huge "mythical" respect for them because what they have accomplished is incredibly difficult and deserves admiration not minimization IMO.
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Quote: I think the thing that separates the pros from the scrubs is mostly just distance. Yeah you've got to be able to hit the ball where you're aiming.. but when you hit a 5 iron on a 213 yard par 3 (which I saw a clip of from the Player's) I think that opens a massive number of scoring opportunity doors. I usually throw my two cents in on these threads. Its way more than that. The average athlete has no idea how good a pro athlete is. They are insane. I briefly entertained going pro in tennis at end of high school and first year or so of college. I was a very good tennis player. I was the best player at my club at 14-15, the best player in my state my last two years of high school, and went to college for tennis at a program that routinely competes at the highest level (playing #2 or #3 singles my freshman year). I attended Bolletieri academy, and while I was there, I played a guy who had lost to Roddick in the junior Australian open that year. He beat me 8-0. I won two points. He hit all my serves back for winners, and I couldn't touch his. It was humbling. That guy didn't make it as a pro. He didn't even come close. I've hit around with a couple pros while at Bolletieri (Tommy Haas a bunch) and it was like they were playing a different sport. Picture the best player at your club, hell, the best player you've ever played with and they couldn't touch a pro. They are worlds ahead in mentality and skill. I can't imagine golf is much different from tennis in this regard. Its one thing to shoot 70 one weekend with your buddies. Its quite another to shoot 70 when you absolutely need a 70 to get or keep your card or whatever. I could hit around with the pros, practice with the pros and play some mini-sets in tennis and not look out of place, but if you put me in the first round of the US Open, even though I was good, I would've looked like a child. They have another gear when the bright lights come on. If I'm off on this and golf is different correct me, but there is no comparison usually between a pro and an even a very, very good amateur.
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TaylorMade Golf Introduces SLDR Mini Driver
johnclayton1982 replied to iacas's topic in Clubs, Grips, Shafts, Fitting
Love to hear if anyone has had any success with these clubs (3-deep, mini-driver, etc...) I played an entire round at my local this past Sunday and the 3 wood didn't come out of the bag. Three of the Par 5s I don't need it to reach in two and one is too long no matter what I do. Seems like getting another tee club is better. I don't hit my 3 wood off the deck much, if at all. Love to hear what people think of these types of clubs. Thinking about hitting one at Edwin Watts this afternoon. -
Partners worry too much about threesome behind
johnclayton1982 replied to mattman86's topic in Golf Talk
Quote: If people behind you start pressing you, let them through if there's room Excellent point. I maintain that playing to the posted time is whats important, but that said if you are holding up a single or a double or someone fast, and you can let them through, you should. Not only does it help them, it helps you. Golf is hard enough without trying to focus on stuff other than hitting your shot. Even though I'm a "good" player, I'm a slow player, especially around the greens. Another thing I've noticed is that those who don't play by the rules tend to play much faster than everyone else. If you don't re-tee/re-hit after you find a ball OB, you concede "gimmie" putts, etc... your going to play a whole lot faster than someone who doesn't do those things. When I have a 3-4 footer, I go through my entire routine, reading the ball from both sides, just like I would on any other putt. I would prefer to play a round in 4 1/2 to 5 hours, but if a course has a POP that's shorter, I fit into the POP. Its extremely annoying to be accused of being "slow" by a group that takes putts inside the leather, drops on OB, drops where they are when they can't find a ball, takes foot wedges to save layup strokes, etc... -
Partners worry too much about threesome behind
johnclayton1982 replied to mattman86's topic in Golf Talk
Quote: if the group in front of you is pulling away, (you'll know that because you're seldom waiting for them to hit their shots or clear the green) it's time to heed the other players in your group and pick up the pace. That doesn't mean you have to rush.....it means playing ready golf, preparing to play while someone else is already playing, and moving with a sense of urgency. Most people who feel rushed are simply unaware of how inefficient they are on the course. They spend more time watching other members of their group hit than they do moving to and preparing for their own shot. As a result, they feel rushed to hit their own shot. Learn to move with an efficient sense of purpose. By the time it's your time to putt, you should have read your putt, replaced your ball, and be ready to pull the trigger. Ditto on an approach shot. Unless you're going to be moving directly into the path of another player, move forward to your ball and get ready for your shot. When the green clears, all 4 members of a group shouldn't take much more than a minute for them ALL to have hit their approach shot and be moving on. Remember......your proper position on the course is directly behind the group in front of you. Not directly in front of the group behind you. Love your posts, Dave, but I'm going to totally disagree with you here. We've had this argument before, so it could be yelling into the wind, but I (and I seem to be the only one) think its silly to base your pace of play on the group in front of you. Of course, you should be efficient and do the things you suggest here - that is obviously preferred. However, I'm not going to get out of my game simply because I happen to be put behind some speed demons that day. Similarly, I don't feel rushed if I happen to be put in front of some speed demons. I know that most here prefer to judge pace of play based on keeping up with the group in front. That's silly. 5 hours is slow, unless the group in front is playing on a 5 1/2 hour pace. 3 1/2 hours is slow if the group in front is playing a 3 hour pace. Those are subjective standards that will get you out of the rhythem of your game. You need to play fast enough to keep up with the posted round time at the course. If the course doesn't have a posted time, then 4 hours is appropriate in my mind. If you finish the round in 3 hours and 45 minutes, your fine. It doesn't matter, IMO, that the group in front of you might have played it in 3 hours. The total, objective time is important, not your speed relative to the other groups. If the group in front of me is playing in 3 hours, I feel no need to rush my game to "keep up". Similarly, if the group in front of me is on a 5 hour pace, I'm going to be put out of my game. I'm not "fast" because I'm "keeping up". The total round time is what matters. OP, I'd ask in the pro shop what the round time is and stay within it. As long as you are abiding my the posted pace of play, ignore everyone else. If there is no posted pace of play, pick one you think is reasonable (4 hours, 3 3/4 hours, tc...) and play to it. It is just as jarring / silly to get out of your game playing fast to keep up with the group in front as it is to play fast to keep ahead of the group behind you. Basing your speed on other people doesn't make sense to me. Basing it on an objective, posted standard does. -
2nd tournament I've ever played in, member-guest at my buddies' club. No "crowd" but probably 10-12 random people watching (near a refreshment stand). Been working toward this tourney for a while, playing with my buddy who is a 2. We got 3rd the year before. Shotgun start, par 3, 3rd hole. For some reason, I had a total brain fart. I took aim at a the pin, swung, felt solid contact with a 7 iron. The ball plopped down with a solid thud about 6 feet short and underneath the hole. I looked at my buddy with a big smile, and saw he was looking at me like I had five heads. It was the wrong green. I had hit the wrong way off the teebox to the green of the par 5 2nd hole. He had been busy and hadn't seen me laser the wrong hole. We had no idea what to do, rules wise, so I sheepishly picked up my ball. Luckily he par'd and it was best score of the two counts. The playing partners we were with that day were still laughing. One of them said my fist pump after the swing was the funniest part. Oops. :P
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Its an eagle. We have a 412 yard par 5 from the back tees at my local that is hard. Its probably 390ish from the front tees and about 360 from the women's. It has water and bunkers about 250-270 off the tee. If you carry them, you can hit a wedge to an easy green for eagle. If you don't carry them, your up the creek. Please note virtually everyone I play with snorts at the 250 carry and hits it short. The trouble goes across the whole hole from trees on the left to trees on the right. If you lay up short of all the stuff you still have a long shot into the green. Its like an hourglass that pinches in from 255-275 and has nothing but bunkers and water and usually you have to go backwards from the bunkers. Its an interesting risk-reward hole b/c its probably the easiest par on the course (I hit 7 iron, 7 iron, SW) but if you try for lower than par you can easily end up with a 7 or an 8. Length of the hole isn't important. Its an eagle. Great job!
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Well, it is now about two years later, and I've broken into the seventies consistently. I just shot a 74 from the back tees on a very difficult course this past weekend, and have done five consecutive rounds under 80 (although one was a 34 for nine I guess). I expected the journey from 82 to 76-78 to take another six months or so from the end of this thread - certainly not two years. Developing the game to break 80 consistently on a 6800-yard course is in the top 3 hardest things I've ever done, right up there with starting a business. Its that hard and took me a smaller but similar time commitment. Others may have found it easier, but for me it was really tough. Fun, but tough. Over the past two years, I've run the gamut (including quitting for about 4 months out of sheer frustration). I've started writing up a similar thread to this one about the journey from 88 to 75. Hopefully it will go up this month. A few highlights: 1. Its mental. Whatever the question, that's usually the answer. :) 2. You can get significantly longer if you are willing to work on it every day for an hour for a year or so. (I went from fairly short 235ish to a long hitter, and I hope to detail how that was accomplished). Using tension bands to get stronger and doing little drills to perfect center-of-clubface contact did wonders that years of overswinging and several driver fittings didn't accomplish. 3. Having a putter that fits you is insanely important. If you asked me to choose between a putter that didn't fit or my 5, 7, 9 irons, I'd play with 11 clubs. I'd probably play with 6 clubs rather than play with a putter that doesn't fit. For me, getting fit (i used edel) was a huge quantum leap in the consistency of my contact in the center of the putterface. 4. Get a schedule and stick to it. A little bit every day works wonders, and is way better than 5 hours per day a couple times a week. I have alot jumbled in my head about the order and what to say about different things, especially since I did alot of things that didn't work *at all*. Now I am hopeful that I can, someday, get my index to scratch. We shall see. In closing, these three books were instrumental/integral to getting to the mid-seventies: http://www.amazon.com/Fix-Your-Body-Swing-Revolutionary/dp/0312605625/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1400507898&sr;=8-1&keywords;=fix+your+body+fix+your+swing (I do the "dirty dozen" every day. This book is awesome. You will add serious yards if you faithfully do the exercises for 3-4 months). http://www.amazon.com/Golf-Flow-Gio-Valiante/dp/1450434045/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1400507912&sr;=8-1&keywords;=golf+flow (The best book I've found on mental game, because it discuss the biology of how the brain works on a golf course, which was helpful to me. "Own your game" by Stockton and "Golf is not a game of perfect" by Rotella are also good, but much shorter and less technical about how myelin actually works, etc...) http://www.amazon.com/Lights-Out-Putting-Approach-Golfs-Within/dp/0809224402/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1400508049&sr;=8-1&keywords;=todd+sones (This book is very very good. Its not as exhaustive as Pelz, and Pelz has better drills, but this book is a light read and gives some great information, especially how to check if your putter fits.) Anyway, hopefully Ill get a longer post up in a bit, as I've started organizing my thoughts already. So much went into getting better that its hard to distill it down to something digestable.
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It sounds mental. What is your pre-shot routine like? How do you pick a target line? Do you have any "get myself lined up straight" rituals? How long do you typically take between addressing the ball and swinging? How closely do you watch your ball position? Do you do anything in your pre-shot routine to make sure you keep a consistent ball position? The same swing with altered ball position can produce very different results. What you are complaining about is hopefully a sign that by moving around your target choice / ball position, you can take away the right or left half of course as you need to, which is a huge advantage. I'm no pro, but I find it unlikely that your default shot shape would change overnight like that (especially if you're still getting good contact) due to some major new mechanical move in your swing. My guess is that your setting up differently in terms of ball position or target line and not realizing it.
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Echo the suggestion. I hit 5 or 6 hybrid and bought an X Hot 19* 3 Hybrid. Love the club. Dependable off the tee, cuts through rough. Totally recommend the "X" Callaway series hybrids.
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NBC should sell network rights for the PGA and GOlf Channel to ABC
johnclayton1982 replied to club ho's topic in Golf Talk
Quote: Believe it or not the LPGA is hanging on by its fingernails. If you don't believe it take a look at the paltry size of the galleries at the events. It desperately needs an infusion of viewers in order to succeed. Could you please provide a cite for this claim? The LPGA's ratings have been steadily rising for a while, and they recently announced that this year, 2014, would be the first year every minute of every LPGA event would be carried live. The 2013 ratings were the highest they've ever had by a whopping 13%. Did you just make this up? Quote: I am like you not informed of what the bidding process or contracts are for gaining shows broadcasting rights. Read Feinstein's "A Good Walk Spoiled". He has a whole chapter on how it works. -
Quote: There are a few places here that have gotten into the 4.5 hr range and IMO it encourages people to take too much time on par 3's and easier/shorter holes when it's 15 minutes a hole. So while yes finishing in the allowed time is within course policy they have allowed to much time without putting much thought into it. Let me see if I understand. You think 4 hours and 15 minutes is too long for an 18 hole round. Therefore, if a course sets a 4 hour 15 minute round they have "allowed too much time without putting much thought into it". How do you know they didn't put thought into it and allowed too much time? Because they allow 4 hours 15 minutes. Why do they allow 4 hours 15 minutes? Because they didn't put thought into it and allowed too much time. That's good old fashioned circular logic. Note you didn't ask about the course at all, you didn't make an informed judgment, you just blurted out "4 hours 15 minutes is always too long". This is why us "slow" players don't really pay much attention to you when you complain. The times seem arbitrary and it seems like an excuse to try to get everyone else to play at your brisk pace. I would feel uncomfortable trying to do 18 in 3 and 1/2 hours. I'm being honest here. That's too short for me. 4-41/2 seems like a sweet spot.
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These look pretty sweet, and may as well support a sponsor of the sandtrap with an order or two. I am currently gaming a stock 56.14 I've had for a long time. I will be using it for shots between 95 and 105 yards and the occasional long bump and run pitch (rare I hit this shot). I use my 60* for pretty much all scoring shots inside of 95. My 56 and 52 are the last two clubs I need to upgrade from my "first set". I love my 60.12 for short touch shots, but I don't like my CG15s for "iron-style" wedge scoring shots (in the fairway about 95-110 yards out). A bit about my game/where I play: I play in Louisiana in firm turf conditions. I usually have clean, fairway or bare lies in the short game. I rarely have to hit wedges from deep rough or bunkers (remember, this is for fairway shots, not greenside shots). My wedge miss is almost always (95%+) a slightly thin hook that goes left and long and doesn't leave a divot. When I hit it correctly, I leave a small divot about the size of a half-dollar. I don't dig much when I hit wedges. I was thinking about a "Shelf" grind, +1* flat. Any suggestions before I place the order?
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Quote: And these statements all clearly demonstrate why slow play is an issue that begins with the course. When a course posts a 4:15 expectation, people will rightfully interpret that to mean that anything at or around that time is acceptable. Right, and if people want to go to the Greens' Committee meeting and suggest lowering the time, they are well within their rights. It is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion for me to adjust my speed on the course for something as random as which groups happen to be in front and behind me. I struggle with my temper, and slowing down around the greens, going through the same progression every time, has really helped me. I'm not getting out of that because I happen to get a 3 and a 1/2 hour guy behind me and a 3 and a 1/2 hour guy in front of me. Its my game, and as long as I play within the posted round time of the course, what exactly am I doing wrong?
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Quote: If recreational golfers feel they can play slow because pros do they need a reality check. For all practical purposes they aren't playing the same game. I actually totally disagree with this. A golfer has a right to play however fast or slow he wants to play within certain parameters. I will admit it - I'm a pretty slow player. When I have any pitch, I walk from my ball to the green, look, and walk back. When I have a chip, I look at it from behind the hole as well as behind the ball. I mark each ball and I putt everything out. If you need to be slow to play the mental game properly, then you should be "slow". However, the pros are "slow" for a reason - it helps them. Throwing out for a minute nonsense like "you play better fast" - which I think is true until you get within 40-50 yards of the green - the pros take a long time to decide their shots in the short game, and then a relatively quick time to execute once they've made a decision. I totally disagree 100% that an amateur golfer (or even a high capper) plays the same or worse as when they take the time to read the green on pitches/chips, mark all their putts, and take their time. Went to the Zurich this past weekend and followed Charles Howell. CH3 took about 6 seconds per shot on the tee. Took about 6 minutes per shot in the short game. There is a difference, and time can help you hit better short shots into greens, especially if you aren't familiar with them. Further, we amateurs like to play in tournaments from time to time. It doesn't work to not look at pitches/chips/putts from all angles during practice (go "fast") then turn on your brain in the tournament and start trying to do all the work you can to hit the best shot you can. You can't (At least I can't) turn it on and off like a light switch. That said, and the reason I get a bit heated up at threads like this, is that you don't have the right to play as fast as you want. You have the right to play at a reasonable pace that allows the round to be finished in the time it should take for that particular course. No more, no less. My course recommends we play a round in four hours and fifteen minutes. Last Saturday, my round was about four hours on the dot. There were groups behind us an open holes in front of us, but we finished well within the allotted time and, as such, we were not slow. If my course drops to 3 hour rounds, I'll pick it up or find somewhere else to play. But if recommended time is 4 hours 15 minutes, and I finish in 4, you have nothing to complain about. As I've said previously in the thread, there needs to be an objective standard. Without one, you are "fast" if your faster than the guy behind you and "slow" if your slower than the guy behind me. I can play a 3 1/2 hour round, but if the guy behind me is on pace for 3 hours then I'm "slow". I can play a five hour round, but if the guy behind me is playing at 5 1/2 hours, I'm "fast". I don't play well distracted. I don't want to look behind me to see if I happened to draw a fast group behind this morning. I shut it out. I finish my round in 4 hours 15 minutes or less and ignore everyone else. If my round, for some reason, is going to be longer than the course guideline, I will start to "pick it up" because at that point I'm slow. I'm not "slow" because you choose to play like a maniac. I'm slow or fast only in comparison to the objective standard posted by the course. Don't get me started on when "fast" players behind me are "fast" because they aren't playing by the rules (hint: its most of them). Sure, there are really good, really fast players out there, but most of the time people are "fast" because when they hook the first hybrid in the water they don't walk up, figure out the best place to drop, go through club selection again etc.. they just drop another where the hybrid is and hit it again. Few people play fast, play well and play by the rules. Of course they exist, but they are rare in my experience. Its a silly idea that the pace of the other groups on the golf course should determine your pace. If groups get backed up and we finish in less than the posted course time, its not slow. By definition. Further, if you let other groups speed you up or slow you down you let them get you out of your game, which is 100% unacceptable. That said, obviously if there is a single behind me or a super-fast group and nobody behind them, I'll let people through all day. But I have zero issue with groups being behind help up behind me if I am playing my round under the posted time. EDIT: Was typing mine before yours went up. Reading now.