ChrisGSZ

Thanks for that - I'll take a look. I joined only recently and I'm still finding my way around.....

I was director and professor of sports science at Bath University, UK. I've now retired and I write scientific books on sport. My first is is on the golf swing! thegolfswingzone.com

The original post actually focussed on two things - what to practise, and how to practise. Much of the debate (in fact nearly all of it - from just a skip-read...) has focussed on the 'what'. Given limited practice time, most people would improve by addressing the 'how' a bit more. In particular, good players who want to get to the very top need to focus on the how.... I'm referring to the science of 'deliberate practice' - to give it it's technical term. It's becoming the norm in other sports. Erik hinted at it in the original post. Does this deserve a new thread?

The 'trick' might be to simply think of keeping the hips 'quiet' during the downswing and then 'square at impact'. The reasons for this are: 1. The downswing is undobtedly a rotational action and the hips certainly have to rotate. But it's a 'quiet' rotation because it's towards the beginning of the kinetic chain. The role of the hips is to transfer energy from the initial push against the ground into body rotation. The key hip action is actually to decelerate in order to do pass the energy on. So thinking of 'turning the hips' can easily cause the hips to work 'too hard' and destroy the timing in the kinetic chain. 2. Thinking of sliding the hips will probably prevent excess hip action because it takes the focus away from rotation. But a 'hip slide' runs the risk of excess weight shift etc., so I feel focussing on 'quietly rotating' the hips has the same effect without the risks. And then a focus on 'square at impact' encourages the deceleration.

Your problem will go away once you start believing that power/distance/clubhead speed doesn't come from the strength of your arms. A good first step would be to find a clear explanation of the 'biokinetic chain' and understand how it works. Then read a little about minimising resistance in the downswing by keeping arms and club close to the body. And finally, understand how a double pendulum works - you'll then see why a passive wrist release maximises clubhead speed. Sounds complicated, but the reading is interesting... Once you realise where swing power really comes from, you'll be less inclined to overpower your swing with your arms. It's mostly a matter of belief in the mechanics and using it to curb your natural instincts....

I've only skip-read through this thread but what seems to be missing is what we should actually do (i.e. focus on mentally) during the downswing. 1. If we focus on accelerating body parts through impact, then we run the risk of destroying the intricate timing of the kinetic chain. Each body section has to slow down to pass energy on to the next link in the chain - so trying to accelerate something that needs to slow down can only disrupt things 2. If we focus on accelerating the clubhead , then we won't encounter this problem - our body parts are free to accelerate and slow down as they require. It's worth remembering that the golf swing is a thing of physics, but it's controlled totally by our very un-physics-like brains. A simple mental focus on clubhead acceleration is likley to achie´ve better 'physics' than a mental focus on hips, arms, etc.....

One thing that often happens on the range is that we think more 'internally' - about technique. Thinking internally disrupts a fluid swing and makes it more 'jerky'. We forget to think about the clubhead, the ball flight, or the target (all external thoughts, which we know promote good coordination and fluid, automated swings). Things can go from bad to worse as the worse we get, the more we think about technique and worse our coordination gets. Two things might help: 1. We need to think a little bit internally - so its best to focus on fewer, bigger swing components, rather than lots of small details. 2. If things do go wrong - spend the next 20 shots thinking totally externally - not about detailed technique. Let your coordination ('automaticity') recover.....

iacas - no problem.... We actually agree about the mechanics - a stable hub/head is important for a rotary action and a wandering head will ruin it. My point was not about what to do but on how to do it - the skill-learning parameters that we can build on top of the biomechanics. A thought to 'keep the head still' can disrupt coordination. Thoughts such as 'turn in a barrel' can have a similar result and because it addresses a bigger 'package' of movements promotes other good things as well. Glad you mentioned compensation.... At one time variability (compensation) was thought of as wrong and needed to be eradicated. Now we know a bit of it is actually essential for any high level skill. (emphasis is on 'a bit of it'....)

Thanks for the above two comments... I'm well into my 60's - I'm skinny and not very strong. I find a tight radius gives considerably more power. A bigger, younger, stronger guy can use their muscles to generate power very effectively - and they probably have increased control. Swings and roundabouts.... And yes, I agree that we can control the downswing - I was just pointing out that it's very quick and we only have time for one or two thoughts....

That's very interesting..... It might be a good idea be aware of your left elbow - it locks suddenly, which over time might cause injury....

Hi Logman, Thanks for this info..... I see - so lever 1 is the upper arm (short) and lever 2 is the forearm plus club (very long). In pure biomechanics terms this makes sense. From a skill-learning perspective though it feels unnatural (I tried it) and most of us want things to 'feel right'. So I guess it's just down to the individual. Interestingly, one of the greatest ever golfers - Harry Vardon - played with a bent left elbow.... Maybe he knew something....? Once again, thanks for the update

The problem is - the downswing lasts just 0.2 seconds - not much time to think about anything. Here's a suggestion: We now have a lot of high quality research into what makes the golf swing work'. In a nutshell, there are three scientific fundamentals to produce a powerful, straight and effortless shot: 1. Muscular coordination - from the ground up - legs - hips - trunk - shoulders - arms. Each muscle group generates power and passes it on the the next link in the (biokinetic) chain (like a corkscrew). This creates maximum rotational energy. 2. A tight initial downswing radius - keeping the clubhead close to the body (wrap it round your body). This reduces resistance to the rotational energy produced in #1. So we produce maximum rotational speed . 3. A passive wrist release (don't hit), which promotes a natural 'double pendulum' wrist release. We convert the maximum rotational speed into maximum clubhead speed. Three things is still too much to think about in 0.2 seconds!! That's why the golf swing is difficult. BUT - there are some simple swing thoughts that can encourage these things to happen: 'Easy from the inside' ''Swing then sling' 'Wrap and release' I'd be interested to hear of others....

Focusing on the quadrants is likely to be hugely beneficial - but not because of the physics. The physics are important, but the greatest advantage of this method is that it encourages an 'external' mental focus - the ball. We've known for decades that sports skills deteriorate when we focus internally on technique and improve most rapidly when we focus externally on 'other things'. The ball (or it's quadrants) is an excellent external focus and will develop our swing effectively whatever the physics.....

Here's a little basic science, for what it's worth... During a golf swing, hundreds - thousands - of things happen. And of course we can't control (think about) most of them. But its not a problem, because humans have fantastic 'implicit' (subconscious) control systems that do it for us. When we perform a skill, our bodies make hundreds of complicated movements and adjustments which all work together to achieve the aim - e.g. hitting the ball. We hammer a nail (an equally complex movement) without any thought of head movement. Our problem is, when we think about one position or movement (e.g. the head) within this complex system, we effectively 'fix' that bit - so our wonderful, self-adjusting control system is disrupted. It no longer has the freedom of movement to coordinate and self-adjust. And the more such details we think about, the worse the disruption gets... In all skill-based striking sports, a variable swing is the best swing because the variability is actually our control system doing it's job - adapting and adjusting. Sure, our heads might move or they might not not - but it's not a concern because it's just adapting to everything else that's going on. Isolating one thing in a good player's swing and measuring it (because we can) actually tells us very little about the full package of movements. Better to think about more 'global' things...

Speaking as a sports scientist, this swing promotes using the club as a lever - and certainly we can use any stick as a lever if we want to. Other sports, such as ice-hockey and field hockey (for some shots) do this. But here's a simple question: where does the power in a golf swing come from? Ultimately, it's the 'double pendulum' action of the wrist-unhinging (produces 80% of swing power). Splitting the hands and levering the club kills this action - so we kill our main power source. Watch a lumberjack chopping with a long-handled axe - they split their hands and use a push-pull level action to raise the axe to a height. Then when they want power in the downswing they slide their hands together (like a golf grip) and 'pendulum' the axe at the tree. Tennis players only have one hand on the racquet so it's impossible to use it as a lever - yet they generate up to 140mph serving speed via their arm-racquet double pendulum action. You pays your money and you takes your choice....

From a motor skills angle, the golf swing is very intuitive for humans because it's a fundamental 'striking' skill. We humans have immensely powerful systems for learning complex skills - walking is a hugely complex movement... Also, shoelace-tying, bike-riding, typing, and hundreds of others. In these other skills we don't concern ourselves too much with following or copying any intricate, detailed technique - yet we master the skill. Our problem in golf is that we tend to override these systems - we stifle them - when we focus on technique. This is the non-intuitive bit - breaking down a striking skill into too many pieces - our information-processing systems can't cope and our coordinative systems break down. We disrupt the body's natural, co-ordinative capabilities and actually slow down our rate of progress. The same happens in other high skill sports like skiing or gymnastics - in these sports athletes focus on the 'big movement picture', not the small details. Much as we all love swing theories and detailed swing analysis - it's probably not our best route to improvement. So the good news is - the simplest way is best!

Srjorion, There are three elements of clubhead speed (prime determinant of distance): 1. Muscular co-ordination (not muscular strength...). The downswing needs to be a 'corkscrew' action starting at the feet/legs and moving up through the hips, trunk and finally arms. It's the sequence of muscular work - each section passing on speed to the next section - that creates arm/club speed 2. Next, this muscular work should meet minimal resistance . We can minimize resistance by making our body/arm/club orientation as 'tight' as possible (small bodies rotate faster than big bodies given the same effort because they provide less resistance to rotation...). So keep the clubhead as close to the body as possible through the first half of the downswing. 'Wrap' the club around you... 3. Finally, this body/arm speed needs to be transferred into clubhead speed. This is achieved by a passive wrist release. It's tough, because it's against all our instincts! But any muscular effort during release destroys the mechanical advantage we've built up. Essentially we just need to allow the wrists to unhinge when they 'want' to.... That the physics of it - ground-up unwinding, keep the clubhead close, then a passive release. Find some simple mental thoughts that will promote these three things, and let me know how you got on.

Biomechanically, all the forces in the downswing tend to throw the clubhead out, if we don't take steps to 'keep it in'. So it's a hugely common problem... In the downswing: Practice a 'bottom-up' unwinding sequence. That is, make sure your muscular work is legs - hips - trunk - shoulders - arms, in that order. Think of your body as a corkscrew. Practice 'wrapping' the club around your body - like a blanket. If you do #1, this will be easy. Practice a passive release of the wrists - just let them do their own thing. Let them release when they want to (they will do it perfectly...). AND/OR Place a cardboard box just outside the toe of the club at address - if the box doesn't move at impact - your swing path was fine. If you lapse in concentration, replace it with a concrete block. These simple thoughts (and the box) will drive the club towards a correct planar path through impact. Try them and let me know the results.... Chris

Sorry for the delay - I've been away... There are some excellent (REALLY excellent...) contributions here. The scientific mismatch in golf is between the miniscule conscious processing (thinking) capacity of the human brain, and the huge number of things we're told to think about... Anyone who's studied motor skill dveleopment will know that we simply can't think our way through a complex skill (swing). So our need is to find a mental focus (swing thought) that will deliver the best 'package' of technical correctness. With our limit of just one or two swing thoughts, we shouldn't waste them on anything trivial... - such as detailed angles and positions. I like things like Leadbetter's 'swing in a barrel' thought - it delivers a whole package of correct movements including weight shift, hip/shoulder turn, etc. - all with just a single, simple thought. I'm not a golf coach, but I've coached other skill-sports, including gymnastics, skiing and squash for 40 years. In these sports, we teach this way... My worry with golf is that it doesn't (yet) .... Chris

LIHU - Wow.... That's too advanced for me, and most other contributors I guess. I used Matlab when I was a prof, but now I'm retired I don't have the software... It's great that you understand the double pendulum - it's the source of around 80% of clubhead speed. Not many people know that....

It's pure physics/biomechanics: 1. Working from the ground up ensures muscles work in the right way at the right time - we accumulate energy through legs/trunk/arms and pass from link to link down the muscular chain ensuring we inject maximum energy into body rotation. 2. Keeping the clubhead close reduces resistance to body rotation hence maximising rotational speed. A tightrope walker rotates (overbalances) slowly - and stays on the wire - if he carries a long pole. We also rotate slowly if we allow our long pole - the club - to stick out. We need to keep it close (tight swing radius) to rotate faster... It's like driving a car - there's an accelerator (muscular chain) and a brake (swing tight radius). We need to press the accelerator and stay off the brake... 3. Passive release works through a 'double pendulum' action - it's too complicated to explain here but it's the reason why 'rhythm' is so crucial. See this link to see a double pendulum in action: http://www.myphysicslab.com/dbl_pendulum.html That's how we get effortless power.... Hope it helps.

WUTiger - you're absolutely right.... Ernest Jones was a pro golfer who lost a leg. He continued playing (on one leg) and played par golf almost immediately. He wondered how the human body could possibly adapt like this and came up with the theory that given a physical challenge the brain has the ability to work out a way to solve it. He changed his coaching accordingly - instead of coaching positions - he told pupils to focus on the clubhead - his mantra was 'Swing the Clubhead' (published as a book in 1936). He was one of the most successful coaches of all time, despite a rejection from the PGA, because his methods were 'too simple' and 'wouldn't sell enough lessons'. We now have so much scientific evidence that he was right - he had stumbled across 'implicit learning' - the way humans are 'designed' to learn - subconsciously. Our biggest problem is believing it! I ask my students to close their eyes and then touch their nose with their finger. Most do it successfully - then I ask them how they did it - they don't know... They 'just did it'. That's implicit learning at work... There's a very complicated sequence of arm, wrist and finger movements - but we don't think about them - we focus on our nose and we sense where our finger is. We might be more successful in golf if we'd do the same - focus on the target (the ball or clubhead path) and sense the clubhead .... Jones once said - 'Breaking down the golf swing into numerous positions is like dissecting a cat - you'll have blood, guts and bones all over the place - but no cat...'

All science is published... research that isn't disseminated is wasted. I mentioned it because I was asked. I'm actually retired - I'm now following my passion for golf - playing more - and using my science skills to contribute where I can.

CIPHER - thanks for these comments - they are very perceptive... . As you say, there is no simple 'cure-all' - everyone is different... . It's just that we have so much evidence (more than a century) that humans and all animals learn best when they focus 'outside the body' - externally - compared to focusing internally on technique - it's a puzzle why we do this so much in golf.... I can certainly reference the research - go to http://thegolfswingzone.com , where there's a brief scientific summary and some downloadable sections. You can also 'Look Inside' the book on Amazon. On this forum, I'm just hoping to contribute some sensible science to debates where science can make a difference.