craps

The reason I make this post is because I think the OP is preaching its all in the set up to get an automatic swing. A proper lean in the setup is required. Even IRON BRYON needs to be set up before it can operates flawlessly. How come you did not gave me your opinion on whether swinging an open face club FEELS the same as a close face club. Why do people have a favorite iron?

I am trying to understand why he stressed that a golf set up will make the swing automatic. Let's just swing without a ball. Does an open club face feels the same as a close face when one swings? To me it does not. I like the feel of rolling the left on top of right hand. It gives me the slashing of a Bushido sword feeling. It makes me not come over the top BUT makes me more prone to sliding. That is why on one of my post , I was wondering why there was no custom club shaft lean built for the individual. It is just not the loft. Its the feeling of swinging a very lofted club with a greater lean shaft . With standard clubs we will have to deloft to get more lean. A more lofted club feels different than a less lofted club. I think the OP is trying to say something similar to this. What makes a pro bend his clubs? Why are people starting to play one length clubs?

My intention here is not to find the perfect set up. I am just curious why majority of instructors teaches square everything and swing out with a strong grip.

I mentioned Ernie cos' he set up the 'Square Way' Although Humans are not perfect, we do always use a perfect model for most things but for golf instructors teaches strong grip. Maybe strong is a compensation move. If we change the apex of the swing arc then MAYBE we can swing 12 o'clock!

Most instructors teaches: Square stance to target line. Square hips. Square shoulders. Fairly strong grip. Club face slightly open. Swing to 1:00 O'clock. Why not Ernie Els setup ? Square everything and neutral grip and swing to 12 O'Clock?

Sorry, I actually compose the reply way before you reply but only send after you send. That is why I did not read your post. I should have edit some content then. I understand why Hogan said he has a 'secret' but never reveal it cos' probably he thinks the secret only works for him. Jordan Speith has a secret move too. It got to be his grip. I admire Raymond Floyd the most cos' his back swing is so wrong and yet he is so right at the top of the swing.

Let me try this. Imagine you have a display item in your home that shapes like a big O. Now you try to clean the inner circle with your left hand using a cloth. The O is on an inclined plane. Notice how your hand and arms will move. The palm which is faced down is slightly facing sideways as you glide up the O. Imagine you tag along the right hand. The right hand will roll on top of left. So during the first few inches of my takeaway, I will roll somewhat like that but very very minimal. Golf instructors will want you to trace an imaginary arc. That is correct but a high percentage of people doing this actually open the face a little without noticing it. I lived in a house with a 40 yd. Living room The house has a 25 ft high ceiling From one end of the room there is a 6 in. beam and directly opposite this beam, there is another beam. I hit good quality dimple foam balls and since using this 'secret move' I was able to hit the beam and the ball would ricochet to the opposite beam. This tells me I hit it dead straight without side spin. If I don't do this, most of my shots are push shots and if I try to round my swing I will impart a lot of side spin yo the ball cos' the ball will rebound and not hit the oppdite beam. I urge people to try this move and see whether it works for you. It works better with a neutral grip though.

Sorry, I meant right hand inwards. Naturally the left hand will move downwards. ( counter clockwise ) Bear in mind that the club face is not close as a result of this move. The forearm does rotate a bit too. Just imagine those big swing groovers where you step in between a big metal inclined ring and you move your club along the circumference of the ring. I would dare say a lot of people will open the club face as a result of rotatating their forearm clockwise but if you were to hold those forearms until waist high you will notice that the clubfacevis constantly facing the target. Again I am talking about a minimal move.

At address, the hands hold the club in such a way that the club face is square to the target. To move from ground zero to waist high, where club is at toe line, its best to turn hands and club face slightly inwards during the whole process. Imagine club moves in an arc flatly on the ground, you will notice the club face opens fairly quickly. If you move from ground zero to waist high, without doing anything with your hands, the club face which appears pointing to the target line, is actually opened. That is why golf instruction never preach neutral grips. A fairly strong grip is always taught. But a strong grip usually produce pulled shots unless one has a very good hip slide towards the impact. What I am preaching here is using a neutral grip and then as one moves the club to waist high, incorporate a slight inward rotation of hands towards left. That way at waist high, the club face will be the same as the spine tilt. One thing I notice is I produce a lot of backspin shots when I swing this way.

Most people with consistent conventional swings usually fights a push unless you uses the weight forward method. (Stack and tilt or 5SK ) Many would toy with a stronger grip. If you roll you left hand slightly underneath and the right hand slightly left as you takeaway, that would cure the push shot cos the clubface would be in relation to the spine tilt. In fact for the clubface to truly facing the target line during take off, one has to rotate the hands a bit to the left as one moves. AGREE?

If you would like to talk about clubface control, then the first few inches of the takeaway is vital. Did you ever check and see when your wrist starts cocking and when your right hand roll more on top of left hand? I know a lot of players don't pay attention to this. They just let the swing happens. Maybe this is the part of the swing where we pay more attention to so that we can achieve more consistency.

The first few inches of the takeaway is vital to a good swing. Some said straight back, others say an arc. This is grossly misinterpret with the naked eye when you see a pro do the takeaway. For me drawing a vertical capital U while turning the body usually ensure me a good swing. what is yours?

Another Jim Venetos wannabe.

True, but I am talking about a customized forward lean. One that fits to my swing. One that enables me tto square the face easier. My hands forward that don't require me to cock my wrist that much. Any idea which model and brand name makes one with the most forward lean. Notice most putters have a forward lean and they are significant. Wait , are those EZ clubs fit into my description?

Thanks for all the input that you guys provide. I was not stating clearly what I want to know. I think I am clearer now. I simply want to know why clubs are not built with a forward lean so that the golfer can hit down or compress the ball easier . I know I can forward lean the club myself but I feel a customized individual forward lean will ensure a better control especially after impact. It too only require a more normal grip. Surprisingly there are training clubs with forward lean but there are not comformig due to a curved shaft.

A lot of times you will find good golfers gripping and regripping the club. There must be an uneven feeling in the grip. Maybe some parts of the grip is felt more towards a certain part of the hand or fingers. Part of the reason has something to do with the lean of the shaft. Sure one can do a forward hand position, but that will promote a steeper swing than the desired one. I for one would like to grip the club in my fingers. I mean I want to feel more shaft. The heel pad of my left hand is more to the side than on top. I do grip the club securely with my left pinky. With this grip, the club face is always closed and I hate that I finally went to a golf shop to bend the hosel so that the club face is square when I use this grip. I don't have to rotate my hands clicwise to get face squared. I don't have to push my left hand out in my stance to get a square club face. I hit more consistent shots this way. I don't know what it is but I find the standard club shaft lean does not go well with my grip. If I adjust the lean in my setup by cocking and delofting the club, my swing would be too steep and lose a lot of distance. I ask a clubfitter and he says whatever works for you. One man's medicine is another man's poison.

Thanks Boo for the post correction. I am not suggesting an idea. I am just saying if clubs were to have an option for customers to be fitted this way, I will be the first to do it. Even it will not benefit me in performance, it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole I get a better picture now why people have preference over a specific brand of clubs because some of them have more pitch in the hosel. As a layman, I thought golf clubs are instruments of precision, played by imperfect Humans therefore it should be tailored made for each individual. The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. More thoughts ? So could you you please explain why USGA banned crooked sticks? Why is there club bending service in custom golf? Everybody looks fine in T shirts but if T shirts can be custom sized, don't you think it will look even nicer?

Thanks Boo for the post correction. I am not suggesting an idea. I am just saying if clubs were to have an option for customers to be fitted this way, I will be the first to do it. Even it will not benefit me in performance, it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole I get a better picture now why people have preference over a specific brand of clubs because some of them have more pitch in the hosel. As a layman, I thought golf clubs are instruments of precision, played by imperfect Humans therefore it should be tailored made for each individual. The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. More thoughts ?

On another post I asked about whether there is such an apparatus for club fitting purposes that have a joystick-like hosel. Lets say you want to be fitted to a 25 degree loft iron.Place the leading edge of clubhead square to target line. Adjust shaft to point to your left hip (RH golfer) for the correct pitch WITHOUT delofting the club. Wouldn't this be a TAILORED MADE fit for more consistency? Pros have their clubs bent for the same purpose. IN short you play your clubs and NOT let your clubs play you.

If you hit a 25 degree club, at impact, the ideal club face should be 25 degree if there is no divot. If you compress the ball and take a divot, the club face is delofted. Is that true? Since our hands grew out from side of body, therefore to place the hand on the shaft across the body to the place inline with the stenum, the clubface will be delofted UNLESS you grip the club in a way that the shaft extend directly upwards from the clubface to the stenum

Is it possible to play every club to their true lofts? In addition, how to set clubs to get true lofts?

There are no needles with both pointed ends. While one length clubs are easier to hit from 3-7, but the shorter irons will not be good unless you choke down accordingly.Try hitting 38" pitching wedge from 100 yards. Half swing? Choke down? Full swing and the ball will go 100 feet in the air. On a windy day? Good Luck.

Thanks. Will definitely check it out. I have one very puzzling problem. At address with the driver, no matter how I grip the club, it always return with a closed or shut face. I am not talking about ball flight pattern. I am talking about the club appear with the face pointing to the left. I loosen my left hand grip and rotate the rounded shaft to the right and it appear square but the moment I move the club back and forward without even swinging, the face shut. This don't happen with the irons though. SOS

Where to find good online instructions for the short game? Its seems most high handicappers don't practice the short enough. The urged to drive the ball and play a round is too tempting.

Tons of advice and drills couple with golf methods were misconceived or interpreted wrongly. Lets talk about what we feel is largely misconceived. I will start the ball roiling by saying that THE BACKSWING PART OF A GOLF SWING, IS NOT A SWING. I see countless people really swing the club backwards to get to a certain position. Even if he/she were able to hit a good shot, I'll bet the level of control they have on their swing is greatly reduced thus breeding inconsistency. Getting the golf swing is only 25% done.The other 75% is consistency and I think this perception of a "swing" going back and up is not good. The backswing should be like someone drawing a straight line without the assist of a ruler. It should not be rushed. It should be done with conviction. Can fellow golf enthusiast provide more misconceptions?