DownAndOut

Reading through this thread has been entertaining but all the equations regarding conservation of linear momentum between club and ball are contained on the web. Tutelman's website saysComing into impact, a golf club's kinetic energy is based on its mass and speed. It gets there from zero kinetic energy during the time of the downswing, less than half a second. This implies that the muscles have to put out a certain amount of power for half a second. Physiologists know how much power a muscle can provide for a short burst (say, half a second).When this fairly simple calculation is cranked through, the answer is that over 30 pounds of muscle mass is needed to impart that energy to the golf club. This is muscle that is engaged in generating motion, and does not include muscle used to stabilize the body in the golf swing posture. The 30-pound number has come up consistently in quite a few separate studies aimed at this question.There isn't anywhere near that much muscle in the forearms, hands, and wrists, so they can't be the major driving force of the swing. You need the big muscles -- the legs, thighs, torso, and shoulders -- to create that much power. That verifies that the clubhead's energy comes from body rotation, not hand torque. But it doesn't unambiguously point to centrifugal force as the enabler.But we should be able to compute the clubhead speed that would result if we only used body rotation and not centrifugal force. Without any velocity at impact from uncocking the wrist, just from body rotation, we get only about two thirds the clubhead speed that a good swing actually accomplishes. So we need centrifugal force because: We know the bulk of the power comes from body rotation. We know that body rotation without wrist-uncock velocity gives a third less clubhead speed. In order for body rotation to generate wrist-uncock velocity, we need centrifugal force -- because the small muscles in the hands and forearms can't generate that much power. But have some of these scientists made wrong assumptions when creating their improved models of the golf swing? Can we question whether assumptions about 30Ib non stabilising muscle type rates of contractions are correct ? This is where they have assumed that the body is used to power the swing (mainly by rotation and centripetal pulling forces) because the arms don't have that amount of muscle. But did they take into account that fast twitch 11x muscles contract 10 times faster than slow type 1 (stabilising muscles) and that type 11a muscles contract approx 2 times faster than type 1? Did they also take into account how much muscle and their distribution type in the human anatomies varies with age and activity habits? How does this affect us golfers if some of these assumptions are wrong and have been incorporated in golf instruction by PGA ? 1. If the scientists have overlooked the fact that there are enough fast twitch 11x muscles in the arms (in the average sedentary human) to hit the ball a long way, then the 'body powers the swing ' instruction could be wrong (for your body type). Maybe golf instruction needs to also consider using mainly the 'arms/wrists/hands' in providing the extension, rotation to get clubhead speed (for specific muscles distribution anatomies) and using the body in a more stabilising role. 2. Depending on what technique you are using (body , arms , both ) is it compatible with your muscle distribution types? Older people in their 80's lose almost all 11x type so maybe using your body a little more might be preferable to retain clubhead speed (seems counter-intuitive doesn't it?). So what do you think powers the golf swing?

It's the physics of this swing that I'm interested in, nothing else.

Hmmm ! Been looking again at Tutelman's reasoning for the extra distance and now it doesn't make sense to me . Shoulder torque being applied in its 'entirety' by left or right shoulder seems (imho) to be incorrect. I think they have to be equally shared but I've raised the question to him.

Actually, Tutelman pursued even more detailed scientific analysis of 'Lee Comeaux's C-Motion' swing (right hand hit/slap action of which DaVinci is a close hybrid) and trialled it out himself for several months . He did find that distance WAS improved and stated the physics explaining why (see url below ). He also documented everything he experienced so it's quite an interesting article. https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/leecommotion1.php The important point was that he hurt his 'lat' and he 'thinks' it was caused by the C-Motion swing. When his lat was injured on the course he played on but reverted to his old left-sided conventional swing with no pain. As I've mentioned before , 'every cloud has a silver lining' and Tutelman's study of the C-Motion (and the physics why distance was improved) gave him an idea on how to increase his own distance using the left-sided swing.

You are probably right . My priorities should be the short game because that's where I fail the most (but I don't get to play or practice enough because of other non-golf responsibilities). My long game is good enough for me to get around the course without too many lost strokes but I think it could be made easier without too much strain.

Actually been looking at this Davinci code swing a bit deeper because the JH videos mention lots of discussion with Lee Comeaux (who he is acquainted with). So I suspect this is just a hybrid 'slap' type swing and strangely enough, Tutelman did some scientific analysis on this type of swing back in November 2010. Ben Hogan, Lee Comeaux, and the Right Hand Hit http://tutelman.com/golf/swing/handhit.php A really interesting article that I'd have never known existed until I noticed this Davinci code swing on You Tube. So now I understand a little bit more about the physics of the golf swing which is great. So 'every cloud has a silver lining'

You non-believers. We shall see how things progress or regress in the next few months.

MY OWN NOTES: My own personal correction : " In the backswing , my right wrist was hinging properly but then I was allowing the weight of the club to supinate my forearm slightly " . Should have said "pronate my forearm slightly". Another thing noticed today. In the downswing until clubshaft horizontal , I should be feeling pressure points as follows: 1. The pressure point on my trigger index trigger finger creating a balancing 'turning moment' to counter the clubs own turning moment (ie. its weight via its centre of gravity on the inclined plane). This pressure vector component in the x-axis direction is caused by the turning of the right shoulder. 2. The pressure felt via the right thumb along the the surface of the inclined plane as it feels the inertia of the club as it swings in a circle. 3. Frictional pressure felt in the last three fingers of each hand as the forearms pull the clubshaft along its length. MUST NOT HAVE ANY PICCOLO EFFECT AT THE TOP OF THE BACKSWING OTHERWISE I WILL CAST EARLY AS I REGRIP THE CLUBSHAFT. From the horizontal position through impact , the pressure points change: 1. The trigger index finger now replaces the thumb as the 'inertial' pressure point along the surface of the swing plane. 2. Thumb pad pressure is used to balance the turning moment of the club's weight. 3. Frictional pressure in the last 3 fingers of each hand is felt to stop the club flying out in a tangent.to the arc of the swing. Golf philosophies worth noting here: Educated hands - Henry Cotton, Feel the swing via the hands and fingers - Ernest Jones

Yes, it does look like a hip slide - my mistake.

WIG swing is more powerful but less consistent - the up and down movement caused by knees extending/squatting moves my upper swing centre too much (makes timing very difficult). This swing requires an active athletic pivot and the 'Sam Snead Power Squat', a strong grip and the ability to brace and re-rotate on a weight-pressured left leg. The tossing of the 'Arms'Club' unit in the backswing makes it difficult for me not to overswing and cock/collapse my wrists at the end of my backswing. Unable to fluently do the 'Hogan Power Move' , the 'Sam Snead Squat' or rotate without strain on my braced front leg means that this swing is probably not fit for my body biomechanics. Without the HPM and Sam Snead Squat , my swing plane is more on the right shoulder plane and basically non-optimal. It needs to go through the elbow plane more and match the geometry of the club. If shoulder plane is too vertical for the geometry of the club , I will get big pushes to the right (which I do quite a bit). Difficulty getting rotation around my lead leg while trying to actively pivot is an obvious impediment for me and this causes me to early extend and also sometimes pull hook . I really like the WIG philosophy but it obviously does not fit me and I will have to accept that fact. Tomasello 'right arm basic push stroke' fits me perfectly. The geometry aspect looks correct and its not difficult for me to do the various moves. I noticed that I had forgotten one basic feel and that was the pressure point in my index trigger finger . In the backswing , my right wrist was hinging properly but then I was allowing the weight of the club to supinate my forearm slightly. This mean't that the index finger pressure was not 'supporting the dynamic weight of the club' to keep it on plane but directed in a way that the pressure would actively promote an early casting action (as I pulled my forearms down). Early immediate wrist set is problematic (and too mechanical ) so I might just toss it slightly in the backswing to get it set early but more fluidly. A reactive pivot fits me better and it seems that this swing action works better for a rear or centre-anchor golfer (I am a 'rear of centre' anchor golfer). My wrist hinge action is horizontal (again a perfect fit for TT swing) . My swing linkage is centre and matches my hip clearance preference (sacrum located). Problem with first move downswing . Do I pull with the forearms or thrust that right shoulder down the plane? Will be experimenting to find easiest way without creating too much secondary tilt and too much lag loading (especially bad for my longer irons and driver). Pulling with the left forearm can create tension so maybe just try and pull with the last three fingers and prevent tension going up the radial side all the way to the shoulder. The tensing up of the left forearm can destroy this swing so I have to fix it. Practicing at home now getting my grip and index trigger finger in the correct position to feel the clubshaft inertial lag. Impact fix drill I'm experimenting with is great to predict and feel impact doing short basic chip strokes. Will start increasing the length of these swings during the next few months while I sit out this terrible UK weather.

Been reading through this thread but wondered whether the original question was wrong. Did Hogan have a hip slide (ie. active sliding of the hips)? As far as I am aware I think he did a rotation and re-rotation and the net 'lateral movement' actually happened in the backswing. He rotated his right buttock in the backswing (moving towards target) on the tush line, it remained in its position on the tush line as he re-rotated his left hip back to the tush- line. So to the obvious observer looking at a video face-on , it seems that he is sliding his hips but really he isn't. So imho (if you wish to copy Hogan's move) the extent of 'net lateral movement' will depend on how much you can rotate that right hip and keep that buttock on the tush line 'as you re-rotate' your left hip, while staying in balance and keeping your upper swing centre relatively stable.

Worst one that nearly made me give up the game was the 'dog wagging the tail' philosophy (that I may have misinterpreted to an extreme) via David Leadbetter's old VHS videos. I had a good swing in my younger days, never had a lesson and won my share of society tournaments until I decided to improve on what I had. Thought that turning my body really fast to fling my arms would make everything happen automatically. Fought a snap hook for many years , then found out that a reactive pivot (in response to the arm swing ) with a sweep release suited me better. Started hitting the ball better but then got suckered into the 'lag' bandwagon which made me shank the ball on and off for a few more years. I think all the books I've read plus internet info (whether gimmicky money making cons or not) has all helped me learn (mostly by trial and error ) little snippets of information that may come in useful one day. I suspect the perfect golf swing for me is going to be mix and match from a broad range of different philosophies that may suit my own body biomechanics.

I play golf mainly to exercise and get a bit of fresh air in beautiful scenery, so my aspirations aren't too high. I do think relaxing and emptying your mind of too many swing thoughts can help ease anxiety and tension. Let that clubhead swing you!!!!

I hope you are joking because it really hurts the right wrist if you time it wrong. I'm just interested in hearing what the ex 'pro' has to say (I can't trace any info about him).

Professional endorsement of this swing is happening as we speak!! Being tested out by an old pro (Stuart Williams ??) in the next 3 weeks.

I use 'Something Else' and it's the old 'Bernhard Langer' style putting stroke before he used the long putter. I seem to recollect Pelz saying it was the most accurate method from 10ft in but I can't find any videos or websites to back that claim. Its similar to the 'Gator Clamp' style shown on the below video at 1:44 but my right hand clamps with the fingers and thumb pointing to the ground.

Many thanks for all your replies. So if the contact period is around the same at 450 microseconds, then I am assuming the ball that is in continual contact with the faster moving clubface will move 'together' a longer distance (until the ball reaches its maximum deformation before leaving that clubface). So the ball will actually leave the clubface at a point further in the swing path from its original point of impact (ie. the clubface would be pointing slightly more to the left of ball target line). A slower moving clubhead speed would mean the ball would leave the clubface less left of the ball-target line.

Does the ball 'stick' to the clubface longer when its struck at greater speed? For example, if you swung a 6 iron at 100mph and it impacted the surface of the ball on the ball/target line (on a perfect 'in-square-in' swing path) would the ball 'ride' on the clubface longer than if it was swung at 50mph?

Following on from the above comments , I actually asked John Hensby for some more information about his background and got the following reply. --------------------------- I drove Speedway Sprintcars and Nascars... the Nascar was on a short track ..not the Super Speedway 1mile/1.5 mile/2 mile tracks ..we didn't have those in Australia...I have also raced motorcycles...in fact anything that 'could' be raced I have raced it at one time or another. I was never a Pro Golfer..I actually didn't start playing Golf until I stopped racing at 34 years old... I have a background in Body Dynamics and taught a lot of different sports before I started playing Golf.... Because I didn't start playing Golf until I was fairly old for a Golfer I didn't really have a great desire to make Golf a profession and frankly the dynamics/mechanics of the game intrigued me really than the actual playing which is why I ended up teaching the game rather than playing it,. I could play to a proficient level and compete with most players other than the high caliber National level players, I played a lot of high dollar sweep-stake matches in those days and lots of times we had more money on our games than guys on the minor Pro tour were getting for first place ... that was the interest for me ...testing myself against seasoned high stakes professional gambler golfers. I have always been a fitness devotee and will probably continue to be until I cant do it anymore..hopefully that is some time away. I guess I have something a bit unique for someone who started Golf as late as I did, I have had 14 hole in one's in competition.... I dont think Seve Ballesteros ever had a hole in one which shows how crazy Golf is , his talent compared to mine was ridiculously so much higher ... its that 'bounce' of the ball that goes for some people and not others. I still teach but will be finishing that at the end of the year, I am hoping to do some travelling around the country on a Golf 'Odyssey' doing some crazy driving of Golf balls from unbelievably spectacular and dangerous locations.....it will be something no one has done before in this country. ------------------------------

Hi Natureboy Here is a video with his DTL strikes using some made up device to stop his right elbow/arm from travelling and pitching his right wrist through impact. Iacus said " I believe it. I believe that instead of hitting his 7-iron 110 yards he now hits it 125 or so. " I remember him saying in one of his DV videos that he hits the 7 iron 145 yards with his Moe Norman swing and that its about the same with this DV swing.

"why are you so intent on chasing all of these little things? " Because its a fun hobby of mine and I love experimenting with this sort of stuff (being just a recreational golfer who plays about 10 times a year). Actually, I tried the Da Vinci code swing last week at the range and shanked about 10 in a row Funny that Iacus mentioned about that guy who thought " His whole swing theory was that the right elbow was the center of the golf club's swing arc. " Because (coincidentally) , I've mentioned that to John Hensby as a comment on his you tube video a few days ago. If you see some of his shorter videos , he does hit shots with DTL views including short pitches. He doesn't sell anything and is just on a quest for a golf swing which he feels is infallible where he won't 'lose' it. " This is a crackpot with yet another "magical" swing that will cure all of what ails the struggling golfer. These videos all have the same sort of pattern, too: some unknown guy telling you how simple and easy golf can be if you just master these simple and easy things, and you'll add distance and shoot lower scores and have better sex and it's all that easy, just try my Hogwarts Magic Voodoo Priestess Mythical Name Swing method. " Tried finding more about him but all I could find was some profile below on another forum. http://www.secretinthedirt.com/index.php/profile/475-john-hensby

I've been following John Hensby for a few years now where he has experimented with various golf actions to find the 'secret'. He's 75 (or even older), ultra fit , and used to teach the Moe Norman swing in some schools in Australia. In fact , he has many videos showing how to do Moe 'hybrid' type swings (no-one can actually swing exactly like Moe). He is confident now that after so many years he has found a method (not Moe Norman style -which he previously thought was best for him) which 99.99% golfers do not do. Although I have my doubts about the physics of the swing it is quite interesting that he has found an ultra short swing style that has not affected his ball distance (in fact he claims it has improved by 1 club). What do people think of a golf swing where one keeps the rear elbow almost fixed behind the seam of your shirt, and basically use a rear forearm throwing action coupled with a reactive 'unhinge' of your dorsiflexed rear wrist just before impact to power the swing? No active pivot , no carry of the arms past the front of your body as you pivot, no perception of lag or flat left wrist through impact? Actually not even a straight lead arm in the backswing is needed for his Da Vinci Code swing, yet his ball striking seems phenomenal (which he demonstrates on his videos). Twilight zone stuff (for me anyhow) and shows there are many ways to swing a golf club. Here is a more detailed explanation of his Da Vinci Code swing.

Many thanks Iacas You mentioned that TGM needs updating . What in your opinion are the top 5 issues that have made it outdated?

Many thanks . Yes , just found another video via Clay Ballard explaining various things: 1. Shaft droop 2. Upward force/lift on the arms as they try to line up with the swinging shoulders plus 3.Because of the shaft droop , there is a coupling upward force on the hands which make them rise a bit too. No doubt TGM needs updating but it might be good just to get a feel for the physics/geometry of the swing (albeit incomplete). Forgot to add that the 'Ballard' video says it is the elbow plane rather than the clubshaft address plane .

Was just doing searches about 'Swing Plane' and saw this old thread. I've been reading up on some TGM stuff and just realised that my perception of swing plane is completely wrong. I should be striving to get the club swinging close to the clubshaft address plane (should really be the plane from the clubface sweetspot extended through the butt end - I think!!!). So in theory, one can still have the 2 ends of the clubshaft pointing on that 'base plane line' on various planes . That even if I swung the club pointing on the 'base plane line' with a square 'leading edge' at impact , if my swing plane was higher or lower than the optimal clubshaft address plane, I could still push or pull the ball off target (because the normal to the clubface would be pointing right or left).