Puttin4Dough

Everyone I know has bought an electric, remote controlled golf caddy. They fold-up to store in the trunk no problem.

So your goal is to convince me that I'm misunderstanding other's thoughts and feels related to the golf swing? If that's your point I 100% agree. I have zero interest to tell anyone how they should feel, if they should or should not have thoughts because that is a circular argument. I see comments about "thoughts", then a blend of thought with "feel". Then I see comments like "I know what I feel isn't what's going to happen, but feeling it translates into a thought", or "the thought of feeling what I'm not going to do helps me". I'm confused, yet entertained. You folks have your thoughts, I have mine. .

You know, the "let go of the club wild swing". I'm sure that was part of his swing thought process, or was it the opposite of any swing thoughts? I don't know. My comment was in response to Vinsk so let him respond. That's your swing thought. What is your point? I have to have your swing thought?

So Tiger has never ended-up wildly swinging and duck-hooking a driver, or blowing an iron shot?

I'd like to hear what Vinsk has to say. Sample size of one? I wish that were true. Plus, I'm not suggesting you said anything.

Vinsk, we're nearing some agreement here. If thoughts translated into replicating action, everyone would be a far better golfer, or player in any sport. Let's face it, in slower motion most people can replicate a great swing, impact position, etc. The problem is transitioning those thoughts to an outcome that requires, IMO, a substantially reflexive action/movement. Case in point last Sunday. I took numerous practice swings while waiting to tee-off on #12. My thought was "do the same thing when you hit" because they all felt correct, in balance, etc. Then I got over the ball and hit the ugliest duck-hook in a long time with a huge reverse pivot. This isn't just me, it happens to everyone. So what happened? Why didn't my swing thought work? And worse, why did my body actually reject everything I practiced just 30 seconds prior? My answer is my swing thoughts introduced an underlying stress to replicate the practice swings. Any thought related to an instruction "to do", or "not do" something invokes complication...stress. At the next tee box I literally didn't think of anything, and also, I took long breaths and checked my tension level. Back to down the middle. As for Tiger, he stops his swing for a million reasons that only he knows. He's one of the very few who does this. IMO, he reacts to the slightest nuance, maybe a noise, some internal out-of-balance condition, over-thinking, etc. Who knows? And one could argue he caught himself tensing up due to too many thoughts, or he lost track of what he was doing. I played with a guy last Sunday who literally stood over the ball for 30-40 seconds, then he took an abrupt swing and hit wild shots. It was clear he was running through a set of instructions his body couldn't possibly carry-out in the required milliseconds of each movement. Swing thoughts are not definable, they are individualistic. They can mean millions of things to millions of people. Some mentioned a thought being summarized into a "trigger"....that I can agree with...some forethought that encompasses the totality of their swing.

You bypassed my stairs analogy. Why? Do you really think about walking down stairs, like "foot here, arm here, weight here"? You don't. Any pro who's thinking about their swing over the ball, other than the most fleeting thought, is not on TV. Thinking adds tension...it's well documented. The problem is we are using the term "thinking" because each person defines that differently. But there's "thinking" as in "I'm about to hit a ball to there", and thinking "Ok, don't forget X, Y, and Z".

Golf is not without thought...I never said that. My overall point is there's a barrier between thinking and swinging. A Tour pro can have 20 thoughts, but of the one's I've played with, when they get over the ball they zone-out. That's why some pro's advise to have a think-box and hit-box. It has to be separate. The second anyone thinks "Oh, remember to do this" over the ball it's not good. It's called not prepared. The stairs analogy is perfect for this topic. You don't think about walking down stairs, you do it. Sure, you can think "don't trip", but that's before the steps, not during. If during the process, one will tense-up. My old high school golf coach did a fun demonstration regarding the mindset in golf using stairs. He got us into a room with a chalkboard and had us diagram each movement to walk down stairs. Left leg does this, right that, arm does this, other arm does that, weight here, now weight there. After the intense discussion about "how to walk down stairs", he had each of us go to the top of a long flight of stairs and he said "OK, walk down the stairs, don't fall". Guess what? Every single person grabbed the railing after a several steps. He said if your swing is not as comfortable as walking down stairs, if you have to think about it, you'll have a hard time ever reaching top-level golf play. So when you approach some stairs next time, of course you'll think "Ok, here's some stairs, don't trip" but it's a fleeting thought, not "DON'T TRIP...LEFT LEG HERE, RIGHT LEG HERE", etc. Point is a majority of the golf swing must be 2nd nature IMO. Yes I am talking about "over the ball". But I think you're into a different discussion. Yes, I can easily sabotage my swing with forced movements. So sure, it's possible to control movements during a swing. But when a bad habit collides with the brain in 1.5 seconds, forget about it.

Erik...if a golf swing requires much more thought than walking down a flight of stairs, it's a variable swing based on shaky ground. It's all about preparation, ingrained thought. Anyone who remains focused upon anything near rudimentary swing mechanics at any significant level isn't on Tour. That's beginning golf stuff. So the grip doesn't matter? It doesn't so much for him because he's "at home' with any club. I would say he has an innate sense of control of the club face over many years of practice. I bet he can bounce a ball 100 times off a SW.

Vinsk, believe what you want...that's fine. But when you get into "somatic neuro pathway's", you lose everyone. I never thought of a "somatic neuro pathway" when walking down stairs, eating with a fork, or turning the wheel to avoid hitting another car. It happens via repetition, or a millionth of a second reaction. The problem is a vast majority of golfers think they can control movement. They can't. It must become a rudimentary, innately involuntary movement...much like "I have a club in my hands...I do this...now".

Erik, I think the players you know are pulling your leg if they tell you they think about swing thoughts over the ball, and especially during their swing, or they aren't top-end Tour players. There's no way they're inviting a terribly inefficient and negative thought-process to hitting a ball that is in direct contrast to fluidly of movement. Couples talks about feeling "oily" during the swing.. That means loose...no tension. I played with Couples on numerous occasions. He let us know PDQ to stop saying "great shot" after his shots. He said "I hit them all like that". There wasn't a moment where he wasn't swinging the club as effortlessly (from our view) like he was walking down stairs.

Sorry Vinsk, not happening. Do you really think about walking down stairs...bringing a fork to your mouth, or tossing a golf ball 10 feet to someone? The answer is no, you don't...no one does. It's ingrained. Erik's poll doesn't support your swing thought theory for 25% or more of golfers. I agree, the other 75% are embroiled in far too many swing thoughts...it's why they take a practice swing then take a swing that looks like they're avoiding a plane landing on them. What are their swing thoughts? Please hit the ball? Don't shank? I know plenty of scratch folks who have maybe two swing thoughts, but that occurs before setup....behind the ball. They're practice moves...not over the ball. To that extent, we haven't defined when these swing thoughts are employed. Is it during the swing or away from the ball before address?

The topic is swing without a thought. The poll results make sense because more advanced golfers aren't focused on swing thoughts, they're focused on the target and they're relying upon their training. There's no way for the brain to manipulate all the muscles required in 1.5 seconds. If you think it can...post the studies.

I include playing time because otherwise what's the point unless one heavily weights range practice for which I've read countless articles that practicing and playing are two different things. Plank on the ground vs. 50 stories high.

The poll results make sense. About 25% of golfers have progressed beyond rudimentary swing thoughts, and 6% would about match those who are single digit golfers. That's a very good poll.