Ole Duffer

Ah, the friendly fluffing a lie policy. "Winter rules" We call that playing it up, fairway only, and intended to be done with the clubhead. But, then, like most things, there are those who confuse it with LC&P, and pick the ball up, and look to find the perfect fairway tee. 😷 Rounds not played under the rules of golf should not be posted. IMO When I played high school golf in Iowa, it was mostly in March and April, and that policy was always in effect. & I don't see anyone here asking to play Winter Rules all the time.

From my 50+ years of playing the game somewhat seriously, I conclude that a group that does not want to allow a faster group to play through will not, regardless of how the rules bodies change the rules to stress that they should, including the last 15 years when it was part of my duty to persuade them to do so. The last instance was a four 4-some group who m/l ordered me to tell their slow group, which was holding up the morning's entire tee sheet, to pickup and move to the next tee, and they would not. &, they likely never will, anywhere, for anyone, or reason.

Going back a few, five days after getting my second Pfizer shot, I got shingles. My doctor-type-person nodded, and said something to the nature of, "Well, your immune system was being manipulated." Did I not say that initially? Let me go look . . . yup. My doctor-type-person said that can happen when your immune system is being manipulated. I'm asking if anyone here has had any side affects because there are some instances of shingles on the Internet. Of course, I still have it, and have studied it, and for an unfortunate minority, it can linger for months/years. But I do recommend that everyone should get the shingles vaccine, even younger people, as we know a 30-some-year-old who has it.

Even as I posted that, I knew that I was saying it inartfully, that I should be doing an exact quote and citing the source, which I found in my research of this topic the last two days. But, Yes, playing it as it lies was the primary reason for not allowing relief; defining a divot was secondary. At courses with big maintenance budgets and carts armed with sand bottles, the issue gets trickier when an old divot blatantly becomes ground under repair, particularly when players can spot seeds in the mix. I found it, where the USGA was commenting: “To provide relief in that situation would really challenge that principle,” said Thomas Pagel, the USGA’s senior director of rules. Said Rickman: “It’s part of golf.” Another issue is defining a divot: Is every small indentation in the fairway a divot? What if it’s filled with sand? (Jack Nicklaus was among those who said sand-filled divots should be treated as ground under repair). Or partially replaced? With players questioning every spot in the fairway they think is unfavorable, it could become a pace-of-play nightmare. Pagel agreed that the rule is “one we hear about a lot,” but for now there are no plans to allow free relief. https://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/no-plan-change-rule-ball-fairway-divot

Just to reiterate, relief from a divot in the fairway is the #1 change LPGA players would like to see, 41.96% of responders to the poll attached to this thread would like to allow relief, 58% of a much larger poll said they would like to allow relief, and the actual reason the USGA has stated for not allowing relief in their sweeping 2018 rules-changing is that they felt it would be difficult to define what a divot is, or at what state of repair/regrowth a divot is still a divot, not that they felt getting relief from a divot is a bad idea.

So, has anyone else here come down with shingles, or any other immune-system related issue, after getting their COVID vaccine?

I read that during my research the last two days. There is no question that not getting relief from divots in the fairway has been an issue for a long time, is an issue now, and will continue to be an issue as long as there is no rule to address it. Not an issue worth losing sleep over, or getting upset with some stranger on the Internet about, but an issue. 😷 Sorta like Pace of Play, which, even though it has been addressed by the rules of golf, is still an issue, and will continue to be. There, another golfer-induced issue. same here . . . if my drives got to where the divots are . . . . 😁 As should anyone who professed the blasphemy that one should be allowed to hit the flagstick with a putt. 😁

The actual explanation from the USGA as to why it allowed the repair of golfer-induced damage to the green is because the green is the only portion of the course where the ball is intended to roll along the ground.

A detailed document was prepared to explain why rules were changed, but not to explain why rules were not changed: https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation for Each Major Change in the New Rules of Golf for 2019 (1).pdf

Yup. & as long as it remains unchanged, and every time a drive on TV gets close to a divot, and the announcer makes a big deal out of it, it will continue to be an issue. If the rule gets changed, so an announcer never gets his panties in a bunch, it will cease being an issue there, or here, or anywhere.

This is probably one of the more disliked rules in the game by golfers of all skill levels. https://www.liveabout.com/relief-from-divot-hole-1565982 - - - - - - Golf's 13 Most Ridiculous Rules and How We'd Change Them 2. Divots 12 OF 13 Group being addressed: Both Rule in question: No relief from divots How to change it: Treat divots as ground under repair (The only "worse" rule is:) 1. Armchair Referees 13 OF 13 Group being addressed: Tour pros Rule in question: Game-changing decisions made by TV viewers https://bleacherreport.com/articles/758624-golf-rules-the-sports-13-most-ridiculous-rules-and-how-wed-change-them Let me point out, once again, that I am not advocating one side or the other, just pointing that there appears to be as much support for changing this rule as there is for not changing it, which I didn't feel was being communicated in this thread. Pointing that out, and citing sources, does not mean that I am posing arguments for changing the rule. It is, simply, something that a lot of golfers do not like, even though it seldom happens. It would be easy to argue that changing the rule would improve the game, and few would likely fight the change by refusing to take relief.

If the rule changed, would you take relief?

Always . . . yet you couldn't repair spike marks until 2018. I bet it gets revisited, and, like I've said a few times, it could go either way, and both sides will accept it. If it gets changed, to allow relief, I doubt that many will choose not to take it, or complain when they take it. 😷

A pro-changer would argue that repairing spike marks is undoing golfer-induced damage to the course, and taking relief from a divot in the fairway is also undoing golfer-induced damage to the course. A pro-changer can justifiably contend that a fairway divot was not "part of the course" until it was golfer-induced. So, yes, those top two issues Lady Pros wanted to address are very similar. In 2018, they either got it right, half-right, or wrong. But, in essence, this is a 50/50 issue, and both leaving it or changing it would be accepted.

What do the Lady PGA Players have to say? If there is one rule in golf that you could change by fiat, what would it be? https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19865737/lpga-confidential-survey-speaking-golf-inequalities I would not have even thought about this issue if I had not seen this discussion about it, and I would not have even investigated to see how others feel about it if there wasn't such a criticism of someone in favor of a rule change in this discussion. But, then, when I looked, 42.2% of this forum is in favor of a rule change, more than 50% in a larger poll favor relief, and it's the #1 thing lady pros would like to see changed. So, it appears to be a valid concern. If there was a rule change, I would not expect an outcry. - - - - - - - Folks can argue this until they're blue in the face, and I expect there's some blue faces around here, but when you google-search the topic, what you find is that the the major expected change that did not happen in 2018, when so many rules were changed, is relief from a divot in the fairway.

Under the heading of "Don't Confuse Me With Facts", it appears the fact is that most golfers may want this rule changed: LIVE POLL 1041 VOTES Should golf's new rules provide relief from divots? 58%: Get Relief 29%: Play It Where It Lies https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2018/12/22/opinion-new-golf-rules-whiff-when-it-comes-to-relief-from-divots/ Can we agree that landing in a divot in a perfectly manicured fairway is unfortunate?

Speaking of unfair, what seems unfair is to cherry-pick posts, take portions out of context, and just show the portion you think will make your point, without showing the rest of the post, which clearly shows that the person really doesn't have a preference one way or the other, just that he understands why 42.2% would be in favor of a rule change. Here's the rest: Given the number of rules changes in recent years, some which seem to wreak of wrecking golf tradition, and given the fact that landing in a divot is so happenstance, an unfortunate, undeserving stroke of bad luck, and given that there is precedent for not always having to play the ball where it lies, as it lies, it would not be surprising to see the rule being changed, and relief be granted when you land in a divot in the fairway. Sorta like "playing it up", which normally means only in the fairway. You don't get to "play it up" when you are not in the fairway because the fairway is considered to be a preferred lie. sorta the point some are trying to make. 😁

I don't have a preference one way or the other, but those words of yours suggests why 42.2% of the poll think the rule should be changed, that since divots "rarely impact play", and since they are purely happenstance, rather than an indication of skill, perhaps relief should be granted. Who would have thought that it would be OK to use the flagstick to stop a putt from going to far? Or that you could manicure every little imperfection that might be near the line of your putt? 😷

This issue is probably the most talked about one that has never had a universal solution.

Given the number of rules changes in recent years, some which seem to wreak of wrecking golf tradition, and given the fact that landing in a divot is so happenstance, an unfortunate, undeserving stroke of bad luck, and given that there is precedent for not always having to play the ball where it lies, as it lies, it would not be surprising to see the rule being changed, and relief be granted when you land in a divot in the fairway. Sorta like "playing it up", which normally means only in the fairway. You don't get to "play it up" when you are not in the fairway because the fairway is considered to be a preferred lie. It does seem to be unfair that two golfers hit the same drive, and they land two inches apart, and one's on the fairway and the other is in a "man-made hole" surrounded by fairway, an inch away, on all sides, and they are both considered fair lies. - - - - - - Now that I've voted, and for those who haven't, the results of the poll are not as one-sided as a casual observer to this discussion might deduce. 42.2% of a fairly sizable number of votes would support a rule change, and that's not reflected by the discussion.

Payne Stewart and divots: https://www.pinehurst.com/news/payne-stewart-the-divots-and-two-u-s-opens/ When the Payne Stewart Golf Club opened, Grand Opening June 6, 2009, each hole was dedicated to some aspect of Payne Stewart. 14 was the divot hole, with a plaque on the tee marker commemorating Payne's divot frustration. But, the GM asked me to remove the sand bottles from all the carts, and divots have not been filled or replaced since. Unrelated, later I removed the sand bottle holders, because they have sharp edges, and arms were getting scraped. I believe those bottles and holders are still in the cart barn, 12 years later. I have not heard one complaint about having to play out of a divot. 😷

My most aggravating topic!

Just me I guess, but I'm relatively comfortable with the targets being set, as those that have been set so far in 2021 have been exceeded. Used properly, targets are a good thing. But I can understand how folks may be gunshy, with the history of unrealistic targets just thrown out with no scientific basis.

I haven't played since a year ago, a week before the lockdown, so haven't had any reason to look at GHIN. But, because a new retiree friend is just starting to play with a regular group, I've been trying to tell him he'll need to establish a handicap, even for picking teams for informal games. For beaucoup years, I gone to GHIN, entered my number, which I couldn't forget if I tried, then entered my last name. I went to do that today, so I could show him my last 20 rounds, if it's still there. But, no, now they want a digital identity, registration, and when I tried to do that, of course it told me to contact my course administrator, saying I'm not active. So, I can't even use it to see my handicap at a new course if I wanted to, without anteing up the bucks. I'm somewhat pissed. That sorta thing makes me just want to say screw it. I bet I'm not the only one it rubs the wrong way. YMMV

I guess we thought that was too much just to play on hole.