olkev

PGA-sponsored market research project and was discussed at a US Golf Manufacturers Council meeting on August 10, 2011. “There are about 24M golfers in the US. The American market lost 4.5 million golfers” - American Golf Growth: Just the Facts, Jack "From the mid 1980s to the turn of the century, the number of golfers grew by about 50 percent -- from 20 million to 30 million golfers," the National Golf Foundation said in a report entitled Golf Participation in America, 2010-2020. "But since the year 2000," the report continued, "the number of golfers plateaued and has been slowly declining, raising concerns about the future." Golf Digest

It is hard to ignore that Nicklaus was in contention to come in 2nd or 3rd 22 times vs. 10 in the 70 major championship starts. The jury is still out but, as each year goes by it is just that much harder for Tiger. If all you want to look at is first place then Tiger is close but he still hasn't made it. If you want to look at the totality of the record as illustrated here, Tiger has a ways to go.

THIS

I'll just leave this here . . . In the 1998 Masters the defending champion was one Tiger Woods who at the age of 21 had set a tournament record the year before with a score of 270 and won his first major. In one of the most remarkable performances of his career, Jack Nicklaus tied for 6th place in the tournament at the age of 58, 4 shots behind the winner, Mark O'Meara. Nicklaus' five-under par 283 is the lowest 72-hole score by a player over 50 in the Masters. Nicklaus was in contention for the title until well into the back nine holes in the final round. Tiger ended 2 shots behind Nicklaus tied for 8th place. By 1996 Nicklaus began playing a very limited schedule. After 29 years on the regular tour and 6 on the Champions Tour, he continued to play at least some of the four regular Tour majors until 2005, when he made his final appearances at The Open Championship and the Masters Tournament. In the 1998 Masters, Nicklaus didn't win, and obviously by that time in his career he was not "preparing" for the majors like he did in his prime but, he beat Tiger by two shots on a course that was 6925 yards long with modern equipment, a modern ball and gave up a 36 year age difference doing it AND it was a major tournament.

How do you think all of this would play out if Cliff Roberts were still alive and Chairman?

That is true. The problem lies in the fact that everybody wants to play the "fantasy tournament" in their minds and wonders what it would be like for the two of them in their prime to go head to head. The argument being made is that if you were to take Nicklaus in his prime, give him today's equipment, and put him up against Tiger today, Nicklaus would beat him. It's that simple; and he probably would, IMHO. So many on this thread have put Tiger on this pedestal, by their own admission, simply because they grew up with him and never saw Nicklaus play, much less any of the competition that Nicklaus beat, and it was strong. They discount Nicklaus' second and third place finishes in the majors which combined with his outright wins is something that cannot be overlooked. The simple fact of the matter is this: If you never saw Nicklaus play, you just don't know how good he was.

You are right about the irons. Tiger's musclebacks very much resemble the MacGregor Limited Editions & Muirfield 20ths that Nicklaus played with in the 80's. Prior to that he played the 1966-67 VIP's which was a muscleback as well. As far as persimmon is concerned, you have to remember that the standard length of a persimmon driver then was 43". That is two inches shorter than today's standard and they were steel shafted with a shaft weight around 120gms. That means a heavier club with a swing arc that is shorter, resulting is less clubhead speed and therefore less distance, at least theoretically. The biggest difference is in the ball being played today. Nicklaus played the Tourney ball which was junk, but even a Titleist balata ball of that time, which was THE dominant ball of that era too, still does not compare to the performance of today's golf ball; very high spin. The dimple pattern alone on the ball compared to today's ball is laughable. Today's ball is so long it is rendering championship tour courses of days past obsolete for many of today's tour venues.

Do not confuse the game of the man you see today with the golfer that once was! Tiger vs. Jack: Players talk Jack http://www.thegolfchannel.com/golf-v...26000&rsec;=211

I have zero experience with tipping shafts and predicting performance outcomes. But I need to know . . . For a Fujikura 652 Speeder Tour Spec stiff shaft, how much of a difference does a 1/2" tipping make in the performance characteristics of the shaft for a driver? THANKS IN ADVANCE!

Too soon to say . . . All of the books on it haven't been written yet but, here's the latest offering "Unplayable: An Inside Account of Tiger's Most Tumultuous Season." Amazon has it . Two people have already reviewed it. I think I will wait for the movie version . . .

OMG . . . is this ever going to end? . . .

Well, let's see what a whiplash is: "Whiplash is defined as a sudden extension of the cervical spine (backward movement of the neck) and flexion (forward movement of the neck). This type of trauma is also referred to as a cervical acceleration-deceleration (CAD) injury. Rear-end or side-impact motor vehicle collisions are the number one cause of whiplash with injury to the muscles, ligaments, tendons, joints, and discs of the cervical spine. "There are two facet joints between each pair of vertebrae--one on each side of the spine. The surfaces of the facet joints are covered by articular cartilage. Articular cartilage is a smooth, rubbery material that covers the ends of most joints. It allows the bone ends to move against each other smoothly, without pain. The alignment of the facet joints of the cervical spine allows freedom of movement as you bend and turn your neck. "When the head and neck are suddenly and forcefully whipped forward and back, mechanical forces place excessive stress on the cervical spine. Traumatic disc rupture and soft tissue damage can occur. The cartilage between the disc and the vertebral bone is often cracked. This is known as a rim lesion. Soft tissue around the facet joint can be injured. Many of the pain-sensing nerves of the spine are in the facet joints. The normally smooth surfaces on which these joints glide can become rough, irritated, and inflamed. Studies show that neck pain often comes from the damaged facet joints. According to the Orlando Sentinel: "The crash knocked Tiger Woods, 33, unconscious for about six minutes, according to a call report compiled by the Orange County Sheriff's Office and obtained by the Orlando Sentinel. Bruhn said the golfer faded in and out of consciousness. "She supposedly got him out and laid him on the ground," he said. "He was in and out of consciousness when my guys got there." Woods was conscious enough to speak, he said. "He was mumbling but didn't say anything coherent," Saylor said. Though the accident did not cause major property damage, "he suffered serious injuries," Montes said. The investigation is ongoing, and charges may be pending. CNN reported: "There was Tiger Woods laying on the ground in front of the vehicle with his wife over him rendering first aid," he told reporters. "He was in and out of consciousness with lacerations to his upper and lower lip," Saylor said. "He was mumbling but didn't say anything coherent." He could have had a concussion. "Woods' concussion, of course, may be the perfect excuse for him to withdraw from this week's year-ender. If it was any regular-season event his absence would be likely, if not inevitable. But it is not nearly as simple as that. Woods is the host of the 16-man invitational in Thousand Oaks; it is a mainstay of his charitable foundations. It would be embarrassing if he did pull out, if only because he managed to play – and win – last year's US Open when plainly in agony with a knee injury and fractured fibia. Concussion defined Maybe he didn't fair was well in that tank as everybody thought or as Tiger and his camp would have you believe . . .

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/disord..._syndrome.aspx I can see where an undiagnosed injury to his neck in the accident triggered an inflamatory process that would have been aggravated by his preparation to return to golf. I don't think he would have to have debilitating pain at the time of the accident. Just enough of an injury to start the process. Nobody can say for sure, because I doubt anybody in Tiger's camp will ever come out and reveal a detailed description of Tiger's medical history. I doesn't really matter. What matters is will it respond to treatment and not be re-aggravated when he starts swinging a club again. When he starts swinging a club again, how much is he going to have to throttle back? The worst thing that could happen, given what we know, is for him to not let this heal as best it can. If he doesn't, then this could develop into a chronic pain condtion . . . IMHO Some of you docs on the board chime in and tell me if I'm off base.

Well, it's hard to argue that one . . .

For me, this is kinda tough because it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. That being said, my picks , , , Tied at 1st & 2nd - Legend of Bagger Vance and The Greatest Game Ever Played (Bruce McGill was GREAT as Walter Hagen) Tied at 3rd & 4th - Tin Cup and Dead Solid Perfect 5th - Bobby Jones, Stroke of Genios 6th - Caddyshack

I get it now!! Class envy!

Supposedly, this is why Haney quit Tiger. “He’s been horrified by the revelations that have come out regarding Tiger and his behavior and quite frankly says he has no regard for a person that acts like that." Hmmmm . . .

OMG! - THAT would be priceless! I refered to it in a previous post on this thread about watching Hogan and Snead on Shell's Wonderful World of Golf at the Houston Country Club. Hogan hit every fairway (pretty much in the middle) and every green in regulation and shot 69. It didn't even look like he was breaking a sweat. He was calm, decisive, determined. Hogan was great. He knew it and was going to make sure you did at the end of the round. He wasn't cocky or in your face about it either; very matter of fact, yet a gentleman all the way around. Hogan knew about being hungry. From his overcoming the circumstances of his father's suicide to his caddy days at Glen Garden in Fort Worth to eventually working his way onto the tour, he didn't have a million dollar plus endorsement deal right after he turned pro and before he ever teed it up at a tournament.

BULLSEYE!! Right on target! That is so true!

Well, let's see . . . 1. One hot wife, scorned, madder than hell and rightly so, packed up with the kids and off to Sweden, with public opinion firmly behind her and he is just waiting for the divorce papers and to find out how big of a check to write and which holidays he gets the kids as well as the regular visitation days and trying to fit all of that into his schedule. You haven't heard anything of late in regard to his marriage, fixing it or otherwise. That alone is stress enough. 2. Public opinion, iffy at best, mostly negative for Tiger, including many of the talking heads in the media. 3. A dominating, tournament caliber swing is lost and nowhere in sight, for the time being anyway. 4. Golf coach quits on him and none in sight. 5. A bad neck and who knows how serious that is, and could ultimately require surgery, then rehab, then finding out if it can hold up to his swing again. 6. Demoralized and lacking confidence. 7. The media is watching his every move with a microscope, by his own admission. 8. In his favor, the bimbo count as reported by the National Enquirer, is holding at 121. Could there be another one out there somewhere that wants to make a name for themselves and rekindle those flames? I gave him the benefit of the doubt with one this year but who knows; that's A LOT of baggage to deal with (I'm sure I've overlooked something) for anyone, much less someone that has only wanted to become the greatest golfer ever. Time will tell, but given the current circumstances, he has a ways to go just to get competitive again.

As the World Turns . . . The question now become, given the current state of affairs, not only who does Tiger want but, who is willing to work with him?

What I'm saying is that you have an individual that at one time dominated professional golf and has been involved in professional tournament golf for over 50 years. In that time period he has seen (with his own eyes, not video, not reading about it) everyone from Nelson, Hogan, Demaret, Snead all the way up to and including Woods. I believe the man has some credibility as would anyone that knows anything about Arnold Palmer. Are you trying to tell me that you can't go to the golf course and see for yourself the difference between another 15hdcp and a scratch player? It's not that much different here except that the differences are more subtle, yet discernable to the trained eye. If, as you say, Jack and Tiger played in different eras and you can hardly compare the two, through statistics or otherwise, then how can you or anyone else say at this point that Tiger is the greatest?

That's interesting . . . In 2007 Arnold Palmer said Nicklaus was the greatest iron player ever.

Go here and scroll down to my post referring to Dan Jenkins. THAT is why people are starting to say the things they are saying.