Philosophy about equipment

[timwalsh300]

I've been thinking about this lately, and I'm wondering what people here think:

Obviously the landscape of golf equipment has changed a lot, even in just the last 10 years. I was reading about persimmon drivers and learned that as late as 1997 there were a dozen golfers on Tour still using them.

I was 11 years old in 1997 and I've only been playing this game since about 2003, so I didn't live and play through that era, but I know that many people here did. I'm told by older folks that the advancements in technology have changed the game - courses now designed to be insanely long and narrow to defend against guys like Tiger Woods swinging graphite and titanium that was tweaked in a laboratory.

I've also seen the studies that indicate that, except for at the elite level, not much has changed. The average score by amateurs is no better than it was 40 years ago. Of course, that could be for a lot of reasons: some of the courses might be more difficult, people have a lot more distractions these days, and culture has changed so we focus more on power than finesse. The length of the average drive has probably increased while everything else has gotten worse. The new equipment has most likely given us the potential to play better, but most people have just been abusing it (I know I did until very recently - hitting entire buckets of balls just to see how far they would go).

Anyway, how do you feel "buying strokes" by spending money on newer, better equipment? If you add 15 yards to your tee-shots, does it matter that it might just be because of your new driver with a "hotter" face? If your approach shots get more consistent, does it matter that it might just be because you bought those more forgiving, cavity back irons?

If you are a tournament player, I understand why it wouldn't matter: For you success is relative to the rest of the field, so you have to keep up.

But if you are like me, just playing against yourself and the golf course, what do you think? Are you fooling yourself into thinking that you are getting better when it's really just your equipment that is improving?

Given the outright obsession that I've seen on this forum for golf equipment, I'm very curious to see if anyone else has considered this before.

My own clubs are OK. I received a set of Nike Slingshot irons and Adams woods for Christmas last year. And I'm guilty of purchasing a better driver just to see some extra yardage on my tee-shots. But now I'm seriously considering going to a local pawn shop and buying the oldest set of clubs that I can find. If I ever get good at this game, I want to be able to say that its just me and my swing - not my equipment.

Tim

[PiKapp23]

I've been playing off and on since about 1984 and have played with persimmon and old unforgiving irons. While I have heard that golfers have basically not gotten better I think part of the reason is that more 'casual' golfers are now playing the game. This is at least in part because Tiger made it 'cool' and because baby boomers are retiring and finding the game out of boredom. In both cases, this has added 'casual' golfers to arena who are essentially hacks. When I was younger I saw a smaller percentage of players who were just not good at all - at least among those who played somewhat regularly. My Dad is a PGA Professional and says in the late 90's especially he started to see a lot more bad golfers playing and taking lessons. He says he gave more lessons than in late 80's/early 90's, but the players seemed to have less desire to get better. He also says that he thinks the trend is starting down now, though, with a lower number of golfers, but a higher percentage who truly want to get better.

Equipment is definately part of the equation here. It's now easier for an occasional player to hit the ball and have fun than it was 20-30 years ago when the equipment was much harder to hit. I think the 'hacker' is more likely to play more now and less likely to quit cold turkey, at least from the perspective of the game being too hard and not being fun.

I'm as guilty as anyone with equipment. I love the game and I love the tools for the game. I am constantly looking to get my set 'perfect'. I always feel close, but then I see something new and feel it might be the key. There is always the argument of Indian vs. Arrow that says the problems (and solutions) are in the golfer, not golfer. I agree with this, but also believe that the right equipment can help make a difference. I have seen a lot of times where a player who is a bit of a hack gets the right clubs for them in their hands and their game takes a longterm turn for the better.

[bogeymike]

the new equipment has really changed golf. The thing I notice about "buying strokes" is that so many beginning golfers will pay $400 for the newest driver but they don't spend anything on lessons. People I know who buy new drivers and whatnot seem to hit the ball much farther into the woods than they used to. Sometimes I see them hit great drives and second shots but they chip over the green three times and then three putt so I think you're right that the focus has changed to improving the long game. I think the key to beginners improving is to find a club (3 wood etc) that they can hit the fairway with and then work on their chipping. That's an interesting fact you noted that the average score really hasn't changed over the years. I was wondering about that but never really knew.

[Jenks465]

I play a lot of my non-competitive golf with an old set of persimmon woods and blade irons and it's the best practice I get. If i'm playing well with those clubs then the game feels very easy when the new stuff comes out. I can understand why new equipment doesn't necesarilly produce lower scores too, as the game is, was and always will be about keeping the ball in play, not wasting shots (hitting OB, into water hazards, unplayable lies etc.) and getting the ball up and down from inside 100 yards, all things that new equipment can't really help with. You can buy a club that hits 15-20 yards further but you've still got to swing on line and square the club face up for it to reduce your scores and you can buy wedges and putters that help you to spin the ball or help with alignment but you still need to be able to judge distance and direction pretty well for these things to have any impact on scoring ability. And there isn't a club that you can buy that helps with course management and until there is I would expect average scores to remain pretty consistent around that high 80s low 90s level that it is now.

[Big_M]

uhm... play with the best equipment you can. It is still plenty hard. Plus, once you get to a certain point, those Nike Slingshots will hurt your game more than help it... you won't be able to shape shots or control trejectory as well, thus you will be looking at players irons. Also, bigger more forgiving drivers have certainly helped people get off the tee, but nothing is helping thier wedge game and putting, so the strokes still add up pretty high. 460cc drivers (or close to that) are probably here to stay, so play with one and be thankful you can. As for people that change equipment every 6 months... no reason for it. We are at the clubhead size limit, the MOI limit, and the COR limit. Clubfaces aren't getting any hotter and drivers aren't really getting much more forgiving (just more adjustable). So, if you have equipment purchased in the last three years, you probably have maxed out the potential for it to really help you... you won't be able to "buy" a better game in a few years simply do to advances, unless your equipment doesn't fit you or some such thing. I am pretty sure we have reached the end of the road with regards to equipment helping us hit the ball further or straighter... the game now is what it is, and we all need to accept it and embrace it, and stop crying about equipment ruining the game, etc. Sure the USGA is dialing back the groove tolerance, and maybe they'll cap drivers back to 380cc eventually, but I think the game is going to stay pretty much the same for some years to come... courses aren't going to get much longer and average drives will be the same in 10 years time.

[ProfessorGAC]

Cool topic.

I strongly believe that there are limits to "buying a game". Now, i KNOW that i wouldn't hit 70's style blades the way in hit my Mizuno irons because they are far less forgiving. I play ok, but i don't hit every shot on an area the size of a dime on the face. So, those decent, but still not perfect hits would never be as good.

As far as driving, i have a titanium driver. I hit it straight, but when i went from stainless to titanium, i didn't notice any real improvement in distance. If it did go up, it wasn't enough to matter! If i hit it an extra 4 yards, i'm still hitting 6 iron. That 4 yards doesn't put the 7 iron in my hands.

Honestly, i think the problem for a lot of folks is that they spend too much on drivers and not enough on putters. I have, a few times in my golf history, changed to higher tech putters that made me a better putter. The XG7 i have now has made my much more reliable in the 4 to 8 foot range, which saves a lot of strokes.

Yeah, i worked on my stroke too, but i did that before i got the better putter. So, i think the technology in putters could really help a lot of folks, but they are busy spending $500 on a driver instead of $120 on a better putter.

The rest of the tech i don't think matters that much. Like i said, there would be a huge disadvantage to playing 60's or 70's technology because of forgiveness.

I just have a hard time believing that things change that much year by year.
GAC

[Chief Broom]

I'm 42 and have been playing since I was 12. I've still got my first set of clubs: MacGregor Golden Bears. I was looking at the irons the other day and they are basically blades with no offset at all. The woods are wood. I played just as well, if not better at times, with those clubs than I do with my set up today. The only real difference I can tell is that today's drivers and fairway woods go a lot farther. Years ago if I hit a 250yd drive I was pretty happy. Today that same drive goes 275yds or more. The irons I really don't see much of a difference. Maybe on off center hits my old irons would sting a bit more, but I could hit those just fine and yardages were pretty much the same. I only played 2 wedges back then, a PW and a SW. I was none the wiser and my short game was pretty much just as good. More wedges allows you to hit more full shots slightly closer into the green, whereas playing 1 or 2 wedges you had to rely on finesse, touch, and partial swings to accomplish the same task.

[DJYoshi]

But if you are like me, just playing against yourself and the golf course, what do you think? Are you fooling yourself into thinking that you are getting better when it's really just your equipment that is improving?

sure a new driver can increase your distance...a more forgiving iron can make it easier to hit the ball pure and long... but the fact remains that..

a draw biased driver won't fix an ugly swing that slices like a banana. i've used teh same driver since i started in '07....i test new ones.. see results adding an extra 5 yards...maybe 10... but i stick with what i've got. the club instills confidence....and in this game where it's about 90% mental... that says a lot....so in a way.you might be buying strokes...but i see it as making an investment in your confidence. sure i'll mishit an iron shot...at least 5 times in a round and then i'm scrambling to make par... am I an equipment nut? OH HELL YEAH! without a doubt.. but i'm not as bad as some of my friends who own 5 drivers, 3 sets of irons and 10 scotty's. for me..at the end..it all comes down to confidence... the way a club sets up and appeals to your eyes... the way how you feel when you're 150 out and you know that you can land it with a high and soft 8... a 20 foot putt that breaks twice...and you line up with confidence.... sure there's technology in our clubs.... but the better and better you get..I think the technology benefits you... you'll see the difference with different clubs...down to the golf ball that you hit.... i play for me...sure i enter tournaments here and there...get SPANKED...but it's me challenging me... relative to the field?? yes... but if i go out and shoot a 76 as a 9 HC and there's a 15 HC that shoots an 80 and wins..i'm not gonna be pissed at all..i shot the best i could that day. damn so many tangent lines along my post.. so sorry

[golf hungry]

This thread is perfect timing! After a succesful trip to Vegas I am buying the wife new clubs. She is playing 6 y/o Adams Idea's. She demoed Bertha 08's and FTi's. She loves the bertha's, much higher ball flight! She's a 14 and going lower. I was worried about the "working issue," but after her instructor and I hit them, I am almost sold. Sure I love to hit a low running 3 iron, but I only use that shot 1 maybe 2 times every 2 rounds.
Don't get me wrong I LOVE my AP2's, but the slight miss's on the bertha's were like WELL hit shots!
Technology is great, use it to your advantage!!!!

[DJYoshi]

This thread is perfect timing! After a succesful trip to Vegas I am buying the wife new clubs. She is playing 6 y/o Adams Idea's. She demoed Bertha 08's and FTi's. She loves the bertha's, much higher ball flight! She's a 14 and going lower. I was worried about the "working issue," but after her instructor and I hit them, I am almost sold. Sure I love to hit a low running 3 iron, but I only use that shot 1 maybe 2 times every 2 rounds.

does your wife have a sister? hahaha a 14 going lower = AWESOME. where'd u guys play in vegas?

[xLoBoB]

Its the golfer not the sticks. If your clubs are less forgiveing you learn to hit them better. I think the is just a plateau for each golfer. When a person gets to a place they are content with in there game they dont get better regardless of what clubs they use. If they arent content they will get better no matter what sticks they use. Just my thoughts

[iacas]

I've also seen the studies that indicate that, except for at the elite level, not much has changed. The average score by amateurs is no better than it was 40 years ago.

I think that's bad/old information. From

Bomb and Gouge :

Source: B&G; The USGA is unequivocal about average golfers: Despite decades of naysayers and experts alike suggesting that the average handicap is not dropping, has not dropped and never will drop, the fact is, it has. Let's say that again: The average handicap of all golfers -- men, women and children -- has decreased consistently for the past 15 years. The average handicap today is two strokes better than it was in the early 1990s, according to research provided to Golf Digest by the USGA's Golf Handicap & Information Network (GHIN).

The length of the average drive has probably increased while everything else has gotten worse.

Probably true.

Anyway, how do you feel "buying strokes" by spending money on newer, better equipment? If you add 15 yards to your tee-shots, does it matter that it might just be because of your new driver with a "hotter" face? If your approach shots get more consistent, does it matter that it might just be because you bought those more forgiving, cavity back irons?

The opposite of the question would be "How do you feel about penalizing yourself by not playing the newest equipment"?

And who on earth would want to do that?

But if you are like me, just playing against yourself and the golf course, what do you think? Are you fooling yourself into thinking that you are getting better when it's really just your equipment that is improving?

Two strokes isn't really that much of a difference, but it is a difference. I don't think anyone's fooling themselves - I do think people should focus more on instruction than equipment, and I do think when they do buy equipment they should be fitted for it.

Given the outright obsession that I've seen on this forum for golf equipment, I'm very curious to see if anyone else has considered this before.

I wouldn't consider myself a club ho like others. And there are worse places to go if you want to see a bunch of club hos, I assure you... I'd repeat what I just said, but I've never had any luck converting club hos into people who will spend money on lessons instead, so I doubt that's gonna change now...

If I ever get good at this game, I want to be able to say that its just me and my swing - not my equipment.

That might be going too far, though. One, the equipment won't be fitted to you. Two, it was designed to be played with a different golf ball entirely, and to some extent, different golf courses than we see today, etc. Three, equipment isn't

that forgiving that you can make a horrible swing and still shoot 75.

[timwalsh300]

The opposite of the question would be "How do you feel about penalizing yourself by not playing the newest equipment"?

I guess what matters is that you play with the

same equipment. With the scientific method in mind, you can't switch clubs, work on your game at the same time, and then expect to know afterwards where you shaved those 2 strokes.

I wouldn't consider myself a club ho like others. And there are worse places to go if you want to see a bunch of club hos, I assure you... I'd repeat what I just said, but I've never had any luck converting club hos into people who will spend money on lessons instead, so I doubt that's gonna change now...

I want to make clear that I don't wish to convert anyone. I'm not arguing that advances in golf equipment have been "good" or "bad" for the game. I really don't care what other people wear, do, or use on the golf course. They can play naked and make up all their own rules, for all I care (as long as it doesn't get in my way). I just want to know what other people think as I start to shape my own philosophies about this game.

it was designed to be played with a different golf ball entirely, and to some extent, different golf courses than we see today

This is a very good point. In a way, I guess that playing different golf courses with different equipment is kind of like playing a different game each time. Perhaps comparing an x-handicapper today to an x-handicapper 30 years ago is like comparing apples and oranges?

Tim

[iacas]

This is a very good point. In a way, I guess that playing different golf courses with different equipment is kind of like playing a different game each time. Perhaps comparing an x-handicapper today to an x-handicapper 30 years ago is like comparing apples and oranges?

Maybe. And FWIW I wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, just playing off some things with my own thoughts.

Too many people are club hos. And it's likely hurting them, too, since they can't develop any consistency.

[Chief Broom]

...One, the equipment won't be fitted to you. Two, it was designed to be played with a different golf ball entirely,

This is one thing I forgot about. Courses today are much different than they were 30 years ago! Certainly there are old tracks in any area that are pretty much unchanged, but new courses today are designed for a very different game than it was when I was a kid. Target golf today and what it was back then is like night and day, and I'm not just talking about elite courses. Water, sand, waste areas, etc. are common features at nice local courses to an extent that was simply unheard of 30 years ago. I imagine much of the improvements in equipment technology have been mitigated by today's harder courses. Obviously this is by design and course architecture has changed as a result of improved equipment. The two help to balance each other out, especially for the more accomplished player. 400yd par 4's are normal today from standard "men's" tees, and that was also pretty much unheard of years ago. That's where today's technology no doubt comes in quite handy...

[Shorty]

I think the thing about modern equipment for amateurs, really, is the issue of forgiveness. A drive off the extreme toe of a 460cc driver can still go a good distance and your playing partners can't even tell the difference between that drive and a good one, but the same swing with a laminated or persimmon driver would have been skied to high heaven.
I had this experience last week. 18th hole, dreadful swing ball mark shows than 1/2 the ball wasn't in contact with the club. Result - a nice draw of a distance of about 20 metres short of a really good one off the (metaphorical) screws.

[tjy355]

In the mid-80's I played persimmon woods, some seriously old macgregor blades and a bulls-eye putter. My handicap hovered around 11-12.

In the mid 90's, I had some early game improvement irons, metal woods and Ping Anser putter. My handicap hovered around 11-12.

It's 2009, I have brand new GI irons, hybrids, 460cc driver with max COR, wedges that spin like crazy, electronic distance measuring... etc. You guessed it, my handicap is hovering around 11-12.

[golf_junkie27]

Too many people are club hos. And it's likely hurting them, too, since they can't develop any consistency.

So very true. I've used three different sets in the last fifteen months and have swapped hybrids for FWs and wedges. Why? Because I'm looking for an edge, as far as distance is concerned, that really does not make a difference for my game. (I rarely go for Par 5s in two) Also, when measuring the distance gaps between my MP32s and TM 300s, there is no discernible difference.

I've learned my lesson and thankfully the equipment changes have not cost me too much cash as all except a driver were purchased second hand. I'm hoping people who were or are in the same boat as me can learn a valuable lesson. Unless you're really that good, it makes no sense to change equipment unless there is a discernible difference. And sadly, I have not noticed it.