Shots with integrity

[bunkerputt]

I have this buddy that tried to go pro about 8 years ago. I think he was playing off around +3 back then, based on his scoring. Anyways, he wasn't quite good enough, met a girl, etc. He hasn't played much since and is probably around a 5 now. His short game is...muh... but his ball-striking is spectacular. I always enjoy watching his shots carefully and noticed something very peculiar. When he works the ball, there is this quick slight curve right off the clubface out to about 100 yards, then it straightens out completely. That's the complete opposite of mine when I work it a little. It tends to go straight at first and then curves when it is dying off. Pardon the subjective, but it seems like his ball wants to go straight but he forces it to curve a little, while mine wants to curve, but it ends up going straight at first. The only details I know are:

1. My clubhead speed is just a little higher.
2. He hits it a mile (225 yard 3-iron)
3. He hits it much more solid than I do. He has a nickel sized wear mark right on the sweet spot of his clubs. I've got a bunch of scratches everywhere from the center to the toe. Nothing worn down.
4. He plays the Mizuno MP-32 irons.
5. I don't know what ball he was playing. He doesn't know either and just plays whatever he found.
6. He's left handed, in case that matters

I would ask him but he is one of those "naturally gifted" golfers who can't explain things in terms my mind needs. What causes this difference? I didn't think it was possible to curve the ball and have it straighten out, but apparently it is.

[Leftygolfer]

I might be totally wrong but I think the difference is what causes it to curve (face angle or swing path). I think if your swing path in parts the spin it will curve and keep on curving. If it is face angle then it would curve quickly then straighten out. My hooks are like this. It starts off left, then hooks online and stays online.

[bunkerputt]

I might be totally wrong but I think the difference is what causes it to curve (face angle or swing path). I think if your swing path in parts the spin it will curve and keep on curving. If it is face angle then it would curve quickly then straighten out. My hooks are like this. It starts off left, then hooks online and stays online.

I've never heard that, so I can't comment. What was distinct about his shots is the sudden stopping of curvature. It wasn't like it was a little bit of curve throughout the entire shot, but a very distinct and sudden curvature at the very beginning of the shot. It looked very strange to me, almost like the ball was being pushed by a very strong gust of wind for the first 75-100 yards that suddenly died off when the ball reached some magical point from the tee box.

What little I've read about it indicates that your path will determine the initial direction and the face angle relative to the path will determine curvature. No one has ever mentioned when the curvature happens, but most of the diagrams have it occurring late, rather than early. I'm sure part of the mystery to me is that it's a level of ball-striking that I'm completely unfamiliar with. I've never seen the pros play, so I don't know what their balls look like in the air, but I hear it's visually distinct.

[upah]

In my experience, the swing path has a stronger effect on the initial flight, where the face angle becomes more apparent later in the flight. This is just how I feel the ball acts for me.

I would guess his swing allows him to maintain a squarer face through impact, while varying the swing path. Yours, in contrast, likely involves a consistent swingpath and a faster manipulation of the face at impact.

I'm confused why you would want a ballflight that acted like his though... Am I reading that correctly? In what situation would you want the ball to curve early and land straight? I'd rather maintain consistent curvature throughout or later flight curvature.

[wedge player]

what i believe is swing path indicates initial flight and where the face is pointed is where the ball is gonna end up.i have a similar ball flight to wat you explained as i believe most low cappers have.

[bunkerputt]

what i believe is swing path indicates initial flight and where the face is pointed is where the ball is gonna end up.i have a similar ball flight to wat you explained as i believe most low cappers have.

That's interesting. Perhaps you can comment more. So from what it seems like you are saying, he is working the ball by changing his swing path slightly, but the clubface is square to the target? Is it also a question of the quantity of side-spin? Maybe he can apply just a bit, whereas I have difficulty not adding a lot?

[wedge player]

That's interesting. Perhaps you can comment more. So from what it seems like you are saying, he is working the ball by changing his swing path slightly, but the clubface is square to the target? Is it also a question of the quantity of side-spin? Maybe he can apply just a bit, whereas I have difficulty not adding a lot?

yes that is exactly wat i am saying

side spin is achieved the same way.say ur moving in to out on your path but clubface is pointed at target the clubface is in essence side swipeing the ball it has no choice but to spin sideways.

[enarhi]

What wedge player said is likely the case here. He's just hitting the ball from slightly inside, causing it to push out and then draw back to the target line gradually. This is basically the same shot I play. Seems it's easier to start it off and work it back to the line with a more consistent inside plane than to try and start it straight and fight any draw or fade.

[timwalsh300]

It is an optical illusion due to standing off the side (or farther back) watching vs. standing over the ball, focusing down on impact, and then shifting your focus to watch the ball fly down the line. Your vision picks up the ball much earlier in flight if you are a spectator.

A lot has been written about this in baseball (regarding breaking pitches).

This is a spectacular demonstration of the effect when the ball isn't even curving at all ... http://www.illusionsciences.com/2009...curveball.html

Tim

[iacas]

If you want to discuss clubface/swing path and its effect on ball direction and flight, please find one of the many other threads that discuss that. Also, hitting flop shots with a sand wedge isn't exactly the model for hitting a driver or even a good solid 4I, though, so when you do visit the pre-existing threads on this, please don't make silly comments like that. And no CD case analogies either.

As to the original question, a slight wind could speak to the ballflight differences, but also if he's putting only a little sidespin on, by the time it gets out there, you might not really notice that it's still curving. Plus, if it's slight, it'll curve more at the start before some of the spin bleeds off, so it's perfectly normal for a draw or a cut to draw or cut less at the end of the flight than the beginning.

[bunkerputt]

As to the original question, a slight wind could speak to the ballflight differences, but also if he's putting only a little sidespin on, by the time it gets out there, you might not really notice that it's still curving. Plus, if it's slight, it'll curve more at the start before some of the spin bleeds off, so it's perfectly normal for a draw or a cut to draw or cut less at the end of the flight than the beginning.

Are you aware of a thread or article that discusses this 'bleeding' off of spin rate later in flight?

[iacas]

Are you aware of a thread or article that discusses this 'bleeding' off of spin rate later in flight?

No, why? It's well known. A ball spins less over time. If it didn't, we'd have perpetual motion.

[bunkerputt]

No, why? It's well known. A ball spins less over time. If it didn't, we'd have perpetual motion.

Perpetual motion? What's wrong with that?

[bunkerputt]

It is an optical illusion due to standing off the side (or farther back) watching vs. standing over the ball, focusing down on impact, and then shifting your focus to watch the ball fly down the line. Your vision picks up the ball much earlier in flight if you are a spectator.

I'm not sure this is the effect that is going on in this thread. For one, I was at the range this weekend and noticed the same early-quick curve followed by straightening out halfway up the climb on my own shots. This only occurred on shots that I had pured and hit what most people would consider straight with very little shape. Two, with decent ball speed (160+ 3W) the ball is so far away and much smaller than baseball laces that I doubt you can actually see it spinning like you can the baseball. I think what happened is a very square swing plane combined with a very slightly open or closed clubface combined with a high ball speed. The particulars of the range balls may have also had something do to with it. Some of them were worn down and would fall out of the sky like a dead duck. Some of them seemed OK and still had a bit of "float" left in them. Regardless, I definitely noticed that some of (i.e. not all ;) my own shots looked quite a bit like my friends.

[bunkerputt]

I played a short course yesterday with my friend and hit a PW. It looked pretty straight to me, but he commented, unsolicited mind you, that my shots "faded quickly, but then straightened out". I thought I'd add this to the info in this thread. I couldn't see the fade, but he could standing behind and to the side of me.