Lie angle Language -help

[InTheTwenties]

Gosh, I wish I paid more attention in high school geometry class. It seems though that I was mostly in HIGH Times school

Anyway, i'm getting fit for clubs and don't know what they mean when you are 2 degree upright, or 1 degree flat. Or 50 pounds overweight.

If I am 1 degree upright, does this mean that the heel (the hosel part) is lifted off the ground? and that by ordering clubs 1 degree upright means it will correct this by lowering the heel? Or vice versa?

Any help would be appreciated

[Fisherdude]

It does get a bit confusing, but I built clubs for over 20 years, so maybe I can make it a bit simpler...

If you are taller than average, you will need clubs that are more upright. That means that when soled, the shaft will be at an angle slightly more towards vertical, which would make sense, since you're tall.

If you're shorter than average, (or squat down lower, or have longer arms, but we're trying to keep it simple!), then you need clubs with a slightly flatter lie angle, or slightly less vertical.

If a tall player uses clubs that aren't upright enough, you will lift the heel of the club slightly off the ground, which will cause the toe to strike the ground slightly before the rest of the sole, which will open the face and cause shots to go to the right.

If a short player uses clubs that aren't flat enough (too upright), then the grip end of the shaft will drop at address, which causes the toe to lift, and causes the heel of the club to strike the ground before the rest of the sole, which causes the clubface to close, which causes shots to go left.

Lie angle is one of the most important aspects of fitting irons to every individual.

You can do a quick check on your irons by using a "lie board". Simply paint a flat piece of plywood, put some masking tape on the sole of your iron, and hit a few balls off the plywood. The paint mark should be in the center of the sole. If it's toward the toe, then you're lifting the heel, and you need a more upright lie angle. If the mark is toward the heel, then you're dropping the club lower, and you need a flatter lie angle.

As you'll probably not be surprised to hear, it's really easy to get this confused and turned around in your head, which is why I re-read this post twice before hitting "submit", and I hope I didn't reverse anything!!

Btw, here's another interesting tidbit about lie angles and drivers. If you've ever hit an iron shot off a sidehill lie with the ball above your feet, you know what happens. The LOFT of the club is no longer perpendicular to the ground, but instead points somewhat left, and shots will go left. Driver lie angle is a standard number, and there's no reason to change it, since you're hitting off a tee. Well, over the past decade or so, driver lie angle has been slowly changed to much more UPRIGHT than it used to be, which causes players of average height to drop their hands at address, which raises the toe of the driver, which causes the loft of the driver to no longer be perpendicular to the ground, which causes a draw-bias, which helps average players reduce their slice. Plus, the fact that drivers are 2" longer than they used to be also raises the toe at address.

Fascinating, eh?

Hope this helps!

[gas_can]

  Fisherdude said:

It does get a bit confusing, but I built clubs for over 20 years, so maybe I can make it a bit simpler...

Fisherdude,

Good information. However, there's one little issue that's not completely accurate. Lie angle misdirection is not caused by the toe or heel of the club interacting with turf and moving it a certain direction. Instead, it is caused because when the toe or heel of the club does not lie evenly on the ground at impact, the face is physically aimed in the incorrect direction. The amount of misdirection is directly proportional to the loft of the golf club. Therefore, it is far more crucial to have the lie angle fit on your wedges, short, and mid-irons than it is to have your three iron and driver fit for lie angle. For the driver lie angle is really a non-issue since loft is so low. One exception I've been finding are hybrid clubs. Wood-like hybrids especially, for reasons unbeknown to me, seem to be incredibly sensitive to having the proper lie angle. Also, you must fit lie angle dynamically off a lie-board. In the past people often used address position to fit lie angle since it was assumed you would return the club to the same position at impact you had at address. However, we know know that is not the case and all that matters is how the club is at impact. The only way to know that is with dynamic lie angle measurements off a lie board. If a fitter wants to put you in a certain lie angle based purely on static measurements such as wrist to floor and overall height, find another club fitter.

[Fisherdude]

  gas_can said:

...Lie angle misdirection is not caused by the toe or heel of the club interacting with turf and moving it a certain direction. Instead, it is caused because when the toe or heel of the club does not lie evenly on the ground at impact, the face is physically aimed in the incorrect direction...

Thanks for the input! While I haven't heard it explained that way before, it definitely makes perfect sense. I have often demonstrated the issue by having a player sole an iron on a hard floor, and then make certain that the center of the sole is in contact with the floor. Improper lie angles become instantly apparent, as you've pointed out, because it's necessary to either open or close the face in order to get the center of the sole to touch the floor. I've just always said: "See, that's what happens at impact!".

While that demonstration can be an eye-opener, you're also dead right about only using a lie board to finally determine if a lie angle is actually correct for that player. Static positions are very misleading.

[InTheTwenties]

  Fisherdude said:

It does get a bit confusing, but I built clubs for over 20 years, so maybe I can make it a bit simpler...

Fisherdude, your post was absolutely helpful and informative. I want to write to say thank you.

When I got fitted the fitter explained this to me but I was lost. Your explanation speaks volumes to your professionalism, knowledge and experience. Thanks again, InTheTwenties .

[ndredsox]

Hate to bring an old thread up, but yes Fisherdude's explanation really helped. I was fitted today in Indianapolis, and I now know why I hit the lie board and why he measured so many times. Ended up being right at $170 for 3-PW with Winn grips and I will pick them up tomorrow. He used the Achieva brand measuring system and really was a professional in the way he worked with me. He even told me that my feet were too far apart when I addressed the ball.

[indacup]

Gas_Can-

Excellent post!