johnclayton1982

As to starting off fast and slowing down later, that is pretty common when you start to improve. Your subconscious mind is very powerful, and it is comfortable with its self-image as you as a golfer. If you usually shoot +20, it'll be hard to shoot +10 or +30 - your mind will try to pull you to where it thinks you "should" be. This sounds counter-intuitive, but I think its true. Keep at it with a good attitude and picture yourself shooting really well on the back. If you start slow, you'll miraculously hit a couple pars/birdies because your mind has a self-image it wants to protect. Breaking through that is tough, but keeping a good mental attitude and visualizing yourself as a +10 instead of a +20 is key. You can find any number of free handicap applications online. For example, http://thegrint.com/

So obviously, according to your theory, if the course is packed and everyone is keeping up and the round takes 5 and a 1/2 hours, that isn't slow? Most people you would ask out on the course during a round like that would disagree with you. There is no agreed standard put out by the PGA or the USGA, relating back to the point of the thread. The USGA says "play faster" to which most players say "Yeah, EVERYONE ELSE needs to play faster, your right". Whereas if the USGA said "play your round in 4 hours" some people might say "Oh, I'm slow then." The point is that by advocating "faster play" the USGA and PGA accomplish zero because there is no standard. Everyone hears that and thinks "Yeah, everyone else needs to speed up". I am suggesting it would be much more effective of an ad campaign if those bodies used a standard of some kind rather than general, generic, relative advice that everyone hears, nods, and agrees everyone else is the problem. We're talking about adding 15-inch holes and other incredibly dramatic remedies from these bodies without those bodies coming out and saying "X hours is fast, Y hours is slow". That seems silly to me.

I'm sick of hearing about it because I don't think its justified for two reasons. First, there is no set time for "slow" or "fast". Second, I think its unreasonable to both expect to play at the speed you want AND the time you want. First, if the course posts a time a round should be completed inside, and its known before you pay, then fine. No problem, the expectations are clear. But what is "fast" ? I've played a round in less than 4 hours before and had people asking to play through and getting frustrated, etc... I've played 5 hour rounds where everyone seems content. If there is no standard, its impossible to complain. Considering almost everyone defines slow play as "play that holds me up", NOBODY ever thinks they are slow. They always think they are normal / fast, and everyone else is slow. Until we have an objective standard posted at the first tee at most clubs (i.e. "A round on this course should take 4 hours"). Second, you can't get everything you want. I play 4 1/2 - 5 hours on Saturday mornings. I can play as fast as I want when I play at 3 pm on Tuesday. You don't get both. You want to play fast? Great, play at 1 on Tuesday. You want to play on Saturday morning, when its most convenient for your schedule? Tough, you're going to be slow, because that's when everyone wants to play. It seems to me like you are choosing to drive at rush hour when you don't have to, then complaining about traffic. I think without an objective standard the whole discussion is silly. Further, I think its greedy to want to play BOTH when you want AND at the pace you want.

Quote: and there's no way you should fail to break 100 10% of the time when you shoot 82 or whatever the other 90%. Yeah, thats probably true. I will read those threads and post a video in the next couple days. You may be right. I have good hand-eye co-ordination and I'm fairly athletic (played D1 tennis in college) so I might just be good at fixing/compensating. Also I'm a good putter and that makes up for alot of swing problems. Quote: And chips don't curve in ten feet, c'mon. :P They may spin a little when they hit the green but they're not curving in the air perceptibly. They do when you hit 'em off the hosel...

They would sell a whole lot fewer clubs if they marked them as non-conforming.... no way they do that probably will just put a small mark on the head or shaft somewhere if even that. This could get really interesting. I have a high-COR driver with a huge head I got off Ebay thats non-conforming. It makes a huge difference. If I hit that driver and a Bandit ball I can hit it about 45 yards farther than without. I hope TM does it. Banning the anchor'd putter was really stupid. Stick it to 'em TM, and make it so the guys in front of me on the course get better so they move faster. Nothing but good can come of putting a better weapon in the hands of an amateur.

Quote: The average golfer looks at the two good shots he hits and thinks "if only I could do those more often…" but what they don't realize is that the other shots are what they're capable of, and the two good shots are the aberrations. Fix your swing. Point taken. Its just so frustrating cause it isn't "once in a while" its good... its 78-81 90% of the time. Its just that small little times I just lose it completely. Its never in the middle. There is probably something that happens to my swing but I don't know what would cause huge slices in irons and a snap hook / popups with driver. Even the chip/pitches when its bad have a slice to them - a very small one, but definate left-right movement even hitting it 10 feet. I'm doing something to get the club outside but I have no idea what it is - and even then, if i'm going outside, why is the driver a hook not a slice? Ugh.

Quote: Anyone is capable of anything if they put their mind to it. Obviously this isn't right. However, I think "natural talent" only appears "natural" because it is developed very early in life. I think it is a true statement that any infant is capable of anything. I do not believe some infants, absent deformities, "can't" make the tour. I do believe that some 10 year olds, by that time, have not been exposed to enough hand-eye co-ordination experience to develop it well enough to make the tour, no matter what they do from age 10 to 40 to try to catch up. I don't believe you are "born with it". I believe it appears that way based on your enviornment and upbringing. People think I'm naturally really good with numbers, but my parents made me take chess lessons when i was a very little kid for a while. I do not think its a coincidence i ended up in a strategic planning finance vocation and people think i have natural talent for it.. If instead of chess lessons i had spent ages 3-8 with a musical instrument in my hands, i think my life would have been very different and people would think i was a "natural" at something else. Its ridiculous to believe that Tiger Woods just happened to be both born to a parental couple that emphasized athletics, specifically golf from age 2, AND was born with a huge amount of natural talent. We just think its "natural" because it is developed incredibly early in life.

I'm not sure what to do about this problem. I'm a decent player and sometimes a really, really good player. However I am inconsistent as heck. I shot 80 even at the hardest course in my area last weekend, shot 79 at my home course last night, and just shot 106 at a fairly easy goat track this afternoon. It is driving me crazy. I'm not sure what drills I can do to practice consistency. When it goes, it all goes - today, I had three popups off the driver tee that went about 50 yards, hit a 3 wood out of bounds, and somehow even managed to hit a pitching wedge out of bounds (sliced it about 70 yards). The thing that started all of it was on hole 3 after two decent bogies I dead-shanked a chip into the bunker, the bladed it out of the bunker into a road. It happens on the range too, so I don't think its a pressure thing. Sometimes I show up to the range and I just can't hit the ball at all. Its about 15% of the time I just can't do anything - the rest of the time I'm a 78-83 golfer. When I start missing, it comes as huge slices with all clubs except the driver, which hits either line drive snap hooks or pop ups. Once I start playing like this, I usually take 3-4 days off and when I come back I'm hitting good shots again. Has anyone ever experienced this? It is driving me crazy. I know its something I'm doing wrong, but I don't know how to practice/drill being more consistent.... All help/stories appreciated. I'm at my wits end with these swings in my play. My handicap is low b/c these rounds usually don't end up in my "top 10" handicap rounds or whatever but I always get looks during these horrible rounds like "you're REALLY an 8?" Its maddening. EDIT: I looked up my rounds in our club's online thing and its pretty insane - I haven't shot between an 86 and a 99 in about a year. Its either over 99 (10% of the time) or under 86. What can I do to fix this!!!!

Read the whole thread. Can't say I agree with reducing distance. As I've posted a bunch of other places, I've been trying to break 80 for about 2 years. Its extremely difficult and I haven't yet been able to do it consistently beyond the odd 76, 79 here and there. About a year ago (had a thread on this too) I decided my 230 driver distance was holding me back and started a program to get longer. I got fitted for a new driver with an ultra-light shaft, drilled center-face contact every day and, most importantly, implemented a fitness and strength routine from "Fix your Body, fix your swing" (which is a great book). I added about 55 yards to my drives and I routinely drive it about 270-280 now. I got about 2 strokes back. No joke. Golf is about scoring. I was watching yesterday when Keegan hit a 364 yard drive with Jack in the booth. He then hit 6 iron into a par 5, hit center of the green and two-putted for birdie. A little while later a much shorter hitter hit a drive there, hit 3 wood, chipped, and tapped in for birdie. Same exact score. Golf is about mental toughness and scoring. Hitting it farther is not all that important to the score. I'd much rather have a great chipping game and hit it 240 than have a poor short game and hit it 280 (

This post from sandtrap... For some reason "get on your autopilot" really resonated with me. I tell myself that constantly during rounds and I'm playing the best, most boring golf I've ever played. Really thought this post had some insight in it and made me a better player. The tip i took away is "try to be boring". That small tip has taken a ton of shots of my game. "Try to be boring". Genius.

Inthehole: Did you ever get a chance to check out the Pelz putting bible? We talked about it in another thread about a year ago or so. I agree mental is important, but doing the 30 minute at home exercises Pelz recommends make a huge difference. He advertises that after doing them at home for about six months (most of them involve putting with your eyes closed to practice visualization) you'll have the inside-4-ft stroke/number of a tour pro. Im not sure its that good, but its a huge improvement to short putting. I consider myself a very good putter, much better than my stroke game. Yesterday I was +3 on the 13th tee. I hit Driver, 3w into a par five and chipped to 3 1/2 feet. Admittedly it was a really tough pin position downhill from me, but three putts later I wrote a bogey on the card. Still thinking about it on the next tee I hook the driver into a lake. My best chance to break 80 so far this year became an 81. It happens to everyone no matter how much you practice or how good you are. You just want it to happen as little often as possible.

Quote: Several people have incinuated that just because you paid your money to play you should have the right to take as long as you like, no matter how long that is. You left out the critical part of the sentence. Unless the course has posted otherwise people can take as long as they want. If you don't like it, play somewhere where they police pace of play. My point is not that people should take as long as they want and everyone else can shove it. My point is that it is pointless to get angry / frustrated with someone for slow play when the course can't even take the time to post what is considered an appropriate speed for a round. I am trying to redirect the frustration and anger from people at other golfers to the courses that don't give guidance. I play with new players alot. They have no idea. All these slow play threads should be directed at courses that don't enforce/post pace of play requirements, not at slower golfers (who don't know they are slow and can't be expected to play to an arbitrary "acceptable" pace which varies with the day and a thousand factors). If no time is posted, its not fair to hold people to some unspoken, arbitary standard. In this thread, we've heard from several legit, serious golfers as to their standards for an acceptable rate of play. We have had people say: 1. As long as you are keeping up with group in front of you, no matter how slow they are or if its a five-some to your single, you're fine. 2. 4 1/2 hours is too long for someone playing off a 9. No guidance on how fast is acceptable. 410? 3.5? a. Subnote: right after someone posted up saying 4 1/2 is too long, someone else posted up a USGA scorecard with a recommended completition time of, you guessed it, 4 hours and 25 minutes. Which is it guys? Is 4 1/2 slow or exactly right? 3. There is no standard, but I know slow play when I see it so, yeah, don't be slow. 4. About 1/2 of experienced golfers want beginners to pick up to improve pace of play. The other 1/2 in other threads yell at them for being cheaters and dropping instead of re-teeing when the go OB, etc... Which is it? 5. New players should be given all the time they need. Experience players, however, should not be playing slow. There are at least five different slow play "tests" in the first two pages of this thread alone. Its impossible to teach a new player how fast is OK. If a course doesn't post a time, I say take as long as you want. Other plays should get mad at the course for not posting the time. When the course posts a time, everyone is on notice as to what slow play means. Without that standard, yelling at someone or coming down on them for slow play is unfair. Its impossible to enforce such a disparate cornacopia of BS, arbitary standards. Either make the course tell us how fast is fast enough or leave us alone. It gets extremely annoying having random golfers enforce their arbitrary standard of how fast they think I should play. Without a posted time for the course, those golfers should be ignored, or politely told that there is no time limit for this course, and if they'd like to speed play up they should talk to the pro shop about implementing one.

Quote: If you play off 9 and average 4:20, that's slow. REALLY slow! I play with an 18 and a 22 most Sat. mornings. I agree, we are not a fast group, but we're not the slowest either. Quote: It is a group’s responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through. #1, this assumes everyone is four-to-a-group, which I almost never see on my course. #2, if the group in front is playing speed golf, is it your responsibility to keep up? #3 If I hit my drive out of bounds and the guy ahead of me birdies, you're telling me I have to let someone play through because I'm now a hole behind? You can't put hard-and-fast rules on it absent a time limit. It doesn't work. There are too many variables in the game of golf. Slow play is completely relative. I don't hold up play Sat am at my course and play a 4:30 hour round. Is that slow? To some people yes (as seen by this thread). To some people, no (as also seen by this thread since we are keeping up with the equally slow groups around us). I think its the perfect pace of play for a leisurely Saturday morning round. People behind me have disagreed before and gotten very frustrated with our pace, just as people ahead of me have gone slower than that and left me frustrated with their pace. if my course posted up a 4 hour time limit i'd comply or find a new course. In the abscence of a posted time limit, I pay my membership dues, and I'm going to play the round the way I want to play it, irregardless if there is some speed demon behind me who wants to play his saturday am round in 3 1/2 hours. Its not happening. The point is that all these threads everyone just agrees with each other that they hate slow play. The anger/ire/frustration is misdirected at the golfers and not the course. Either get your course to post a a time limit and enforce it or find somewhere that does. Its annoying when people want you to play to their pace and you want to play slower than that. You have every right to play your pace and ignore them provided you are complying with local rules. In the abscence of a round time limit, a golfer is well within his rights to play his round his way, IMO. I know this view is unpopular, but I don't think its fair to hold people to some arbitrary standard and get frustrated / pissed when they don't comply with your pace of play standards that they know nothing about and are not posted anywhere.

I thought this would be an interesting topic to read some replies. Last night went to a nice public course in my area b/c there was a tournament at my usual course. Hooked up with two other singles in the pro shop and went to the first tee. I was paired with a guy wearing jean shorts and nike sneakers, probably 5'10" and 150 pounds, who had a Star Wars golf bag and all Star Wars headcovers. Guy was maybe 19, 20. Obviously kinda wrote him off (As we all do sometimes). Turns out there is some Comic convention in my area this weekend and he brought his clubs. On the first tee his drive went about 290, right up the gut with a slight slice into a left-right dogleg. Turns out hes a +1 and the best golfer, by far, I've ever played with. He shot a 69 on the par 72 and it could have been lower. Kid was probably 160 pounds soaking wet and wearing jean shorts and sneakers and using a star wars bag. The bag was pretty sweet it had a TIE fighter on it. Whats the biggest surprise you've gotten from looking at someone to how they actually play?

I've played 20 or so courses here in Louisiana and I have *never* seen that. Is that really common?

Why isn't it posted like rating / slope at the club? That makes no sense at all to rate it and then not publish the numbers on the scorecards.

As an offshoot to the "slow play" thread, where I argued without posted round times people can't be yelled at for slow play, I was wondering if people thought this was a good idea. In addition to providing course rating and slope, why doesn't the USGA, as part of this "rating" effort, also rate the course for how fast 18 should be played by four adult male golfers from the men's tees? All other times (9 hole, up tees, four kids, etc...) could be extrapolated from that. You could then print the time on the scorecard just like the slope/rating. I think this would drastically speed up play - once you give men something like a time limit, nobody wants to be slower than that (just like nobody wants to play from anything but the tips). Thoughts on the USGA including this (target time to complete a round) as part of the rating system? EDIT: You could then have the starter say stuff like "You should make the turn at XX:XX am/pm" and he would have some authority behind him (the USGA).

Quote: Whether its specifically "defined" or not, as Justice Potter Stewart famously said, we all "know it when we see it"! But the problem is everyone on this board has a totally different definition of what "slow" is. My saturday rounds take about 4 hours and twenty minutes. Is that slow? I dunno. My course says four and a half hour max. That makes four hours twenty minutes reasonable. It is *completely pointless* to discuss slow play without posted round limits.

Slow play can't be criticize without an objective standard. Nobody thinks they are slow (or at least the vast, vast minority of slow players *actually think of themselves* as slow players). The guy who you think is the slowest player at your club playing five hour rounds is reading this right now, nodding, remembering the time he got stuck behind a six hour guy and thinking "man, I hate slow players too." Thats the problem with these threads. Without the course telling you what "slow play" is, everyone just posts up that they hate slow play while nobody thinks "I'm a slow player". Its not objective - its subjective. Thats why the duty is on the course to either post what is considered a fast round or shut it. There is a 9-hole by my in-laws i play during thinksgiving. It has a sign posted telling people they shouldn't take more than 1 hour to play the nine (its very easy, 5 par 3s). If they didn't have a sign, and i took an hour and a half, am i playing slow? Who knows! Either the course has posted a time-for-round limit or it hasn't. If it hasn't, tell them they should. If you play on a course without rules regarding pace of play, don't complain. All you're doing is projecting your opinion of "slow" on everyone else, none of whom there is ever any hope of getting to agree with you that they are in fact slow. IN other words, if they pay the $60 they get to play the round they want unless the club has posted otherwise - there is no universal "slow round" absent a clear rule.

We've had this argument out before. I take the totally opposite side. When I was just starting out I played like that guy. My point then, and now, is that slow play and being bad are not the same thing. If he isn't taking too long between shots, and he isn't "slow" but just needs a lot of shots, then its not slow play. Your gripe isn't with the player. He paid his $60 just like you and, provided he hits the ball at a reasonable pace, he deserves to play a full round of golf by the rules of golf (i've also posted up topics before when *the same exact forum posters* post up yelling at beginners to pick up and bend the rules to play faster and then, in a seperate thread, argue that people should never cheat or turn in handicap scores that arn't "real".. which is it?) Anyway, your gripe isn't with the player, its with the course. If the course doesn't have a time limit on rounds and doesn't have rangers, then don't play there so that they get them. Absent pre-posted restrictions in the pro shop or around the course, he is well within his rights to play a legit round of golf since he paid his greens fee. Its not your place to decide whether or not this guy should pick up or let you play through. Its your place to decide you arn't going to patronize a course that allows slow play. And if you decide to play a course that doesn't have rangers or time limits, you will play 6 hour rounds sometimes.

Sold! Please remove.

What are your problems with your 3 wood off the deck? if its consistent contact (i.e. fat shots) consider trying out a Cobra Rail-F Baffler 15.5* 3 wood. I have one. It has a unique, rail sole that drastically minimizes the effect of a slightly fat shot. Its a really neat club and my favorite to hit. Its not especially long (I hit it about 225 and a Callaway X hot about 240) but its incredibly consistent off the deck because of the rail sole. It also has a thin face which makes it easier to put on the ball. If you are making consistent contact and just slicing / hooking, its going to be difficult to fix that with anything but just more loft (i.e. a 4 or 5 wood).

I've got a fairly fitted bag. I'd rank the immediate improvement from fitting this way: 1. Edel Putter .... ... ... 2 (but way behind). Driver 3. Irons 4. Wedges Just my $0.02. Go get an Edel fitting. Its about as much as a new driver ($300-330) and it is incredible the difference a fitted putter makes over an off the shelf one.

Quote: Ernest, if I had 100 swing video's piling up from potential clients, I would definitely pull up each video at some point before the lesson with that individual and look at it. I admire your dedication and love your attitude. I just think it'll be different in four years or so. By that time, you'll have looked at hundreds of videos for people who never call you again, don't show up, bounce checks to you, reverse charges after lessons etc... etc... (not specifically videos, but going the extra mile on your own time for someone you have no prior relationship with). Maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But I used to have much the same attitude until I learned, the hard way, that giving away time is the easiest way to go broke. You also will learn very quickly that sending replies like that, the client basically hears: "Please send me as many emails as you want!!!" it very rarely stops at one if you reply nicely and pay attention to it. Just my experience. Its the cycle of business. When a professional first starts out (and golf pros, accountants, architects, lawyers... its all professional service businesses) they need work and so they work really, really hard to do anything to please their clients. Eventually, they learn to have a core group of well-paying client and ignore everyone else until they prove themselves. You give them the hour, absolutely, but thats it.

I would read them. I certainly wouldn't reply to them (which was the OP's original complaint, no reply). And if someone bought one hour of legal time, sent me a video that would require analysis and attendant emails wanting a response, then took to the internet to complain because I "only" spent the one hour they purchased then yes, I'd feel exactly the same. Its easy to say "its only 5-10 minutes". And if it was just the OP, that would be reasonable. But it isn't. Everyone does this and says 'its just an email" and "its just 5 minutes". Do enough five minute favors and you start talking about real time. Sorry if my defense comes off too strong, but I hear this 4-5 times a week (its just an email, i know i only paid for an hour but c'mon, etc....) and people who for flat rates or salary or another compensation structure don't know how easy it is to waste your whole day/week on freebies, and how annoying it is to hear complaints when someone buys an hour you should give them an hour and fifteen minutes because its "just fifteen minutes". We don't have inventory. Our inventory is our time. I see nothing different in the OP complaints here and someone posting that they're pissed Edwin Watts didn't throw a 4 iron in when they bought 5-PW because, hey, its just one club man! Everyone would see that as ridiculous. People who charge by the hour see their time as inventory (or they will go broke). Now if this pro charges some huge, above-market rate for lessons, maybe you could see him having to go the extra mile in terms of customer service. If the OP had been a student of the pro for a while and had spent alot of money with him, I could see it being reasonable to ask for a little extra. But it was a $29 groupon. Give me a break.