eich41

Few thoughts First, the new rule on the ball movement is dumb. It's less clear than it was before, and while I believe the intent was to allow for some leeway when a situation like that occurs, all it's done is create a HUGE gray area. If that weren't bad enough, it's also opened it up to be interpreted by third parties who didn't witness the actual event but want to sit around a TV and try to debate the call. What happened to being self policing? If he didn't think he did it, then move on, unless you think he's a cheater, in which case his playing partner and rules officlal should/would have called him out. Secondly, if you're going to call the penalty, then call the damn thing and let the competition move along without some cloud hanging over the tournament where nobody knows what the real scores are. I am glad that this wasn't a tainted win for DJ. I don't think there is a guy I've ever felt better for winning his first major. He's always been a favorite of mine, and giving away a couple of majors and with the WS fiasco, and the way he lost some of the others like last year's US Open, I thought he may never win one. To have the whole penalty thing hanging over him and go out and blow the rest of the field out of the water made it that much better. Really loved the birdie that was a nut kick to the USGA on the final hole. Finally, the shit show that was the awards ceremony. Was Diana Murphy shitfaced? It was like she had no speech (or couldn't read the speech), was slurring her words, no train of thought, and sounded like she didn't even know the game of golf. My wife could have done a better job off the cuff and she doesn't know much about golf, let alone the president of the USGA. The humiliating cherry on top of an embarrassing Sunday for the USGA. Also loved the booing of the USGA by the crowd at the ceremony.

I never made any comment to justify altering a lie to save a club from damage. What I was pointing out was that in theory moving a ball to a preferred lie and not taking the penalty is simply ignoring the penalty so you can write down a lower score. However on the course if these guys had to take a stroke, they would try to play it, often resulting in a poor shot that would delay play. Also as I stated before, I think competitive golf and these silly rules are contradictory to that, so I personally would see no point in playing. However if others chose to do so, I don't care. When they try to tell me they shot a 84 I know it's probably closer to 100, but it's no sweat off my back.

With all due respect, they are not. It is set to the white tees and they are allowed the option of playing the gold tees. I am fully aware of how the hdcp system works, which is why I brought it up. On the scorecard it says white tees and tee hdcp.

I think it would speed up play a bit. Your example is true in theory, but if faced with a bad lie, most people wont take a unplayable, they will just try to play from the bad lie, and hope for the best. Then they skull it or shank it and it ultimately takes longer. If you're laying 3 with a bad lie, you can take an unplayable, and hit five to the green and maybe make your double bogey and move on. Or you could just play it and maybe end up in the same spot. It may ultimately be smarter to take the unplayable, but 95% of players will not do so if there's a chance to avoid the penalty.

I think it's not a big deal for casual golfers to play this way. If it helps them enjoy the round more, makes it easier and quicker to get around the course, then by all means. To be fair a lot of mid to high cappers probably don't know many of the proper rules anyways. As long as they know that they don't really shoot an 85 it's not sweat off my back (and even if they think that I don't really care). I personally just find it a bit weird that one would want to play in a competitive match with these rules. I'd rather see good shots rewarded and bad shots punished. I'd hate seeing a guy pull an approach shot left and on the lip of the bunker where he has a bad lie and no stance, only to be able to lift, place and give himself a stance and a great lie for a chip. Especially if I left it short in the fairway and have a tricky tight lie to play.

Not much you can do. I doubt the guy is working there much longer. It'd be a bit different if you were just on the range, and he thought you did it on purpose. But if you're taking a lesson with the pro, it's not like he is saying "Okay, now we're going to work on your snap slice into the cart guy". Then to come berate you in front of essentially his boss, is pretty dumb, especially if it was to the point that it cut your lesson short.

We get it. You've convinced yourself that you play "fast enough" and there's no need for anyone to play faster than you. You won't let anyone play through, unless they're capable of playing their approach shots, chip shots if necessary and putt out before you can tee off on the next hole. Despite people pointing out that that isn't how it works, and suggesting the proper way to let someone play through without having to "sit for 15 minutes for this to happen" you've just repeatedly pointed out why you aren't going to let a faster group play through. None of them hold water of course, but if it makes you feel better about not following the proper etiquette then do what you gotta do...

Right. That's what I'm saying though. These guys are getting their cap based on whites AND playing from the gold tees. That's what makes no sense. The whole point of a handicap is to level the playing field regardless of skill, tee, course, etc.

So my course's league is flighted based on team handicap. I'm in the bottom flight (my partner is a generous ~43hdcp who is just getting into golf). You play to the lowest hdcp in the match, and it's best ball match play for a point a hole, with 1 point for winning the match. Pretty standard league rules. We also have a rule that anyone age 60 or older can play from one set of tees forward. There is a team who is also in the bottom flight, but just barely. They're both about 15-16 type of players, so solid above average golfers. They're also both 60 on the dot. Because we are in the bottom flight, the league plays from the whites, which measures out to These two guys are killing pretty much everyone in the league. They elect to play from the forward tees which is the Gold tees in this case. These guys are both still about average length golfers, so they're knocking the ball out there about 230-240. Throw in the extra yards they're getting by playing the forward tees, and they routinely have less than wedge into the green, and even my longest drives (and I'm a pretty long hitter) fall way short of theirs. Given that our flight is the bottom flight, and my partner is just getting into golf seriously, I have no intentions of winning anything, and it's purely a social function for me. However, I am trying to figure out why they don't just take your handicap from whatever set of tees you normally play from, and adjust it to the set of tees that everyone else is playing? Am I missing something? Is there any reason not to do it this way? I understand the intent of the rule, and I think it most cases it's warranted, but clearly these guys don't need it, but will gladly take it as it gives them and advantage that pretty much can't be overcome over the course of a match. I'd consider it a form of sandbagging, and not much different than taking more strokes than you deserve, even if the rules technically allow it. I myself wouldn't take it unless I felt I needed it as I'd rather beat someone on an equal playing field rather than winning with the deck stacked in my favor. Can anyone point out what I'm missing though? Why do they need to leave it up to the players to decide? If you play from the Golds normally, take your handicap, and adjust it up for the Whites and give them the appropriate strokes. If you normally play from the whites, then use your normal handicap and continue to play there. It should be this way regardless of your age. If you're 30 and play from the Golds great. If you're 72 and still scratch from the tips, great. Just adjust accordingly and play from the same tees.

It's an interesting concept. It seems that just handicapping and flighting an event or league (for those who play with these rules) would accomplish the same thing. What's the difference between not following the rules of golf, giving yourself preferred lies on every shot, and reducing the penalties for OB/lost balls, vs. just playing by the rules of golf and using the handicap system? Either way your score is an artificially low number, but at least with a handicap you would actually have a pretty good gauge of whether you played well or poor based on a net score. With lax rules and always having a good lie is simply not going to help you play better golf and you won't know if you played well or not as improving your lie and no stroke and distance can shave a lot of strokes off your game. I guess the concept is that you're playing a more casual and social type of golf that's easier for high handicappers to get around the course, but then it's competitive as well. For me personally, those two things are contradictory. But then again, you have people who always sandbag and try to get every advantage they can over their competition just so they can win. I guess for some it's more about feeling good about "winning" even if they needed favorable rules, conditions, or strokes to do so. If I were the OP and there was an option of playing in another "tour" like the Golf Galaxy Am Tour and those types of events I'd do it. There you just play by the rules, with a handicap, and they flight the events so that you're playing against a group of golfers that are of similar ability. You'll get better, you'll get some true competitive golf, and if you win you'll

Not quite as amazing as Randy Johnson's fastball with the pigeon, but still pretty crazy.

There is truly some sort of psychological barrier for some people. Some make the conscious decision like your friend for whatever reason, and some just try to speed up or just ignore that there are groups that are faster behind them. As I stated earlier, even ignoring that golf etiquette calls for letting faster groups play through, the result is a more enjoyable experience for everyone. Faster groups aren't held up and waiting, and the slower groups don't feel rushed by having someone waiting on them. Instead you have the logic that's shown up in this thread where players justify not letting a faster group play through for a variety of reasons, none of which hold water, but make them feel better about contributing to the problem of slow play.

That's a bit harsh, but some truth there. I can't reiterate enough that golf etiquette calls for slowER groups to let fastER groups play through provided there is room in front. MrDC and the OP seem to think that golf etiquette calls for slow groups to let fast groups play through when there is room. Those two are NOT the same thing. Shaq is tall, but Manute Bol is taller. If they were lining up by height, Shaq would not go to the front because he is tall (although it appears that many people would simply say "well Shaq is tall enough"). You cannot justify keeping faster groups behind you rather than letting them play through because you've deemed yourself to be playing "fast", "fast enough" or "within the allotted time". Your absolute pace or speed is absolutely positively irrelevant. If there is someone playing faster then the rules of golf etiquette dictate that you let them play through if there is room. Any attempt to justify otherwise is simply denial and adds to the issue of slow play on the course.

He seems to be talking about a remote possibility that between his group and 18, there is somewhere the group playing through would get stuck. Therefore, because that is a possibility, he feels it's his right to dictate everyone's pace behind him, because there is a slight possibility that he may have to wait for an extra group later in the round. All this despite the fact that he isn't keeping pace with the group ahead as far as he knows....

Again, another fine example of why slow play is an issue. SLOWER groups should let FASTER groups play through if there is room ahead. It's a relative term. It does not matter if you consider yourself to be a fast group (I don't need to know how quickly you play because it's irrelevant). If you play at a pace of 3 hours (without a group directly ahead of you) and the group behind is playing at 2:30, then you should by the rules of golf etiquette let them play through. Furthermore, the logic of "what if they hit a log jam ahead of us and we have to wait for an extra group?" is more silliness. So you don't let faster groups play through, because somewhere up ahead there could be a log jam that you eventually catch with the group now ahead of you. So you guarantee that the group(s) behind you will have a slower round because there is a remote possibility that you might have to wait on that group, making your round 5 minutes longer? It's obviously different when you have a group directly in front of you, especially if you're already waiting on them, but to not let someone play through when there is room ahead of you because you've deemed yourself a fast player is the exact logic that has made slow play a huge issue. What is it that makes people have such a hard time letting someone play through? Ego? The thought that someone may be a better golfer? Entitlement? Whatever the case, you should realize that you are absolutely not following golf etiquette regardless of what pace you've deemed yourself to play at.

[quote name="iacas" url="/t/83364/cell-phones-cameras-on-tour#post_1172882"]Phones and cameras have already been banned. It just (mostly) lead to people who wanted to have their phones with them being sneaky. [/quote] Well if they start removing patrons from the course as soon as they pull out a phone, it would solve the problem. A rule is only as effective as its enforcement and recourse.

At what point is the tour going to take some sort of action regarding the use of cell phones/cameras with the gallery? As Spieth was in his backswing on 18 with a chance to win his third major of year and make history, some jobber couldn't help but to get out his camera to get an action shot. Most likely so he could post it on Facebook or Twitter to brag to his buddies that he was there and got a picture of the shot. That was an egregious example but it seems like every shot these guys try to hit there are multiple people with little respect for the players and tournament and are more concerned with their personal desire for a cool picture for their social media bragging rights. Since clearly so many peoe simply can't help themselves, how long will it be before phones and cameras are outright banned? I'd be all for it since we clearly have passed the point that common decency is enough. Especially when you have guys like Spieth who deal with this every shot, which slows down the pace, and are later being put on the clock for salt in the wound. Thoughts?

Yes the OP points out the exact reason why slow play is an issue. Whether your pace is below the time set by the course is irrelevant, unless you are over the time, in which case you need to pick up your ball and skip the necessary holes to get back into position. Proper etiquette calls to let faster groups play through. Faster is a relative term, not an absolute. If you're playing at a 2 hour pace and someone else is playing FASTER than you, let them play through. I don't know what it is that makes people so reluctant to let someone play through. As the OP stated, he felt rushed and was trying to pick up his pace beyond his comfort level. So he's rushing, and the guys behind him and still playing slower than their pace and waiting. Furthermore, OP stated that he didn't let them play through because "they hadn't reached the tee before I teed off" and therefore he wasn't holding them up which is comical. So now the only way you let a faster group play through is if, after waiting for you to clear the green, they play their approach shots and then putt out and then get to the next box before you've even teed off? I can see why you don't let anyone play through if that's how you think it works. Groups who refuse to let faster players play through (and usually justify it on the absolute minimum pace set by the course) just end up having a less enjoyable round for themselves and the group(s) they are holding up. If they swallow their pride or whatever nonsense is keeping them from letting someone play through, everyone has a more enjoyable round. And as pointed out above, the OP's story doesn't hold water in regards to not holding them up at all. All that said, it's also inexcusable to hit into someone. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Most of the courses with built in GPS units have a pace of play tracker that tells you the elapsed time and if you're behind pace. I guess the more technological version of your clocks. The problem with both systems is that the culprits for slow play are either oblivious or self centered jackasses who think it's their right to impede the play of others. In either case those systems won't do anything to help the problem. The "While We're Young" and "Tee it Forward" campaigns are good starts, but I think they fail to reach the culprits behind slow play. It really needs to start with the courses themselves. They need to clearly lay out the expectations prior to the round in the clubhouse/starter house and enforce it via aggressive rangers. By aggressive rangers, I simply mean rangers actively enforcing pace of play throughout the course and round, not the retired guy cruising around on a cart simply as a "presence" thinking about his round of free golf he's going to play when he's done for the day. The tee it forward campaign would be best addressed by the starter and course. They should have a recommended set of tees based on handicap and/or length and suggest the appropriate tee box. I've seen a few courses do this well, and it seems to at least help. You'll still get the 25 capper who thinks he hits it 300 off the tee and needs to play the tips or 1 up, but I think there are some guys who don't relate slope/length from each tee to just how difficult the round will be for them and how much more enjoyable it would be from a different tee. A starter making that suggestion would help tremendously for their enjoyment and pace.

One other thought I had on this, is the whole 4:15-30 expectation that is set for a round. One problem is that it's the MINIMUM requirement. If you're playing any slower than that, then you (theoretically) should be asked by the ranger to pick up. I think that allows some people to think that playing a 4:45 round is okay, because it's close enough. While technically speaking the minimum is just that, the minimum acceptable time, I think it may lead to groups that don't want to let faster groups through because it's their god given right to play in that position as long as they are playing to the minimum speed. I was out in Vegas playing a round a few months back, and we waited on a foursome literally every shot for the first 6 holes for at a minimum of 5 minutes every shot. We got to a par 5, and we had to wait for them to clear the green, for at least 15 minutes. They finally finish up, and one of the jackasses decides he wants to go try his first putt again, which is on the fringe of the green 50 feet away from the cup. So he takes two practice strokes, then hits his putt (which he misses horribly again, then has to walk back to get his ball (in the exact opposite direction of his cart). I just about let my 5 iron rip into him when I saw him put the ball down. The next hole, we get to the tee box, and these guys are 100 yards in front of the tee box, looking for someones wayward drive. They could have simply moved their carts a bit and let us play through and we would have been gone, but they don't. Finally at hole 7 a par 3, we pull up to the tee box, and they still have two guys left to tee off. We had to ask to play through, and they reluctantly agreed. They weren't going to let us through until we asked. Long story short, we played around the remainder of our round with nobody in front of us, ate lunch, and were headed back to the hotel as they were just starting 17. /rant

Agreed. The vast majority of slow players are bad golfers, but that doesn't mean the vast majority of bad golfers are slow players.

I certainly don't think that all high handicaps are slow. I'd say the majority of them do play right along. The problem of course is that it only takes a group or two playing slow to clog the whole course. Low handicap players can get away with playing more methodically, simply because their more efficient in the first place due to hitting quality shots and not spending much time with the other things that slow high handicappers down, like looking for lost balls. As for the time looking for lost balls, I think we're kind of saying the same thing. They spend too much time and have the whole group looking for balls. Also to be fair, most high handicappers aren't going to hit a provisional (unless it's a league or something). They'll just take a drop and play from around where they went into the trouble. I also have to add that I joined a semi private course last year (members only on the weekends and Friday afternoons) and it's been money well spent. First our tee times aren't stacked as they aren't trying to accommodate as many groups as possible to get their money. It's also more of a "players club", and I'd say the average handicap is around 10-12. I haven't had a round touch 4 hours on a weekend yet this year. If I'm out M-Thurs, I've had a few 4.5 hour rounds, and played through some foursomes who were definitely going to be putting in 5 hour rounds, but they were non-members who were likely trying to soak in the experience of playing one of the better tracks in the state.

Just to clarify, I don't think fast play is exclusive to good players, however, I think the vast majority of time, slow play is due to poor play. As I said above, I think the biggest culprits of slow play is looking for lost balls for far too long, especially when the ball is certain to be unplayable. If you can't afford to lose a golf ball, you need to find a new hobby. The other reason why better players typically aren't going to be the cause of slow play is simply because you move fast when you play well. So even if the 2 handicap is reading putts a long time, taking 4 practice swings etc., they will move fast. It doesn't take long to play when you hit every fairway, the majority of greens, and at worst two putt. They will spend zero time searching for balls, little time raking bunkers, they won't be chipping back and forth across the green at any point, etc. Also I'll agree with the sentiment about guys waiting for the green to clear from 300 out after a 200 yard drive. But that goes back to how many guys think they drive the ball 300+.

Few comments on this... First on the time per stroke debate, it doesn't really work as the higher handicap players most likely have several penalty strokes on a hole, not to mention the fluffed chip shots and missed three footers Secondly anything over 4:15 minutes is a slow round. There are many things that can contribute to that including stacked tee times, slow players, etc. As for slow players, besides the obvious of standing over putts too long, taking too many practice swings, and not playing ready golf, the biggest culprit that really backs up a course is looking for lost balls faaaaar too long. You'll see guys digging around the water/swampy areas, 50 feet into the thick woods, etc. At that point you're not going to have a playable lie anyways. Take a drop and play your next shot. It's ridiculous the amount of time some guys spend looking for wayward shots that have no chance of being playable. Lastly, pace of play is relevant. Some guys think that it is their right to take every last minute of the 4:15-30 they are allowed and if they hold up a faster group they'll just have to wait. If there isn't a group right in front of you let the faster group play through. Everyone will be happier. The faster group doesn't have to wait and you won't have a group up your ass the whole round.

Bali Hai isn't a bad track. Sounds like you already know the drill on the constant air traffic, but outside of that it's a pretty good track. There are definitely better courses and better deals to be had out at Mesquite and other areas, but frankly, unless you are renting a car, Bali Hai is a good choice. It's a bit overpriced, but like you said, a cab or rental car is going to run you at least $50 RT and likely closer to $100, so by the time you deduct that it's a wash. Plus I can be at BH and back at my room in 20 minutes, which gives me more time to gamble! If I every planned on playing more than a round while in Vegas I'd get a rental car and play Coyote Springs or some of the other great tracks, but for the convenience factor it's Bali Hai or Wynn, and the Wynn is the most overpriced track in the US. More than Pebble for what is a very average (albeit VERY well manicured) track. I have heard of a few courses that have pick up/delivery included in your fees but I don't know the details on those.