cutshot878

350 yard drives. 200 yard 9 iron shots. The modern game. Love it or hate it. Perhaps restrict the loft on the driver to 15 degrees. A 3 wood can only go so far, maybe 320 max. Time to reign the ridiculousness in a little bit. Or not.

There could be some truth to this statement. My uncle, who didn't learn the game as a child, and who never became an obsessive golfer, often tells me that he's looking at the ball at address. Focusing on the exact dimple or portion of the ball that he wants to strike. Maybe he got this tip from Nicklaus' Golf My Way or from another golfer. He seems to think that hitting the ball is all about impact (which of course it is ultimately) and if he just strikes the clubface on the right part of the ball then he will hit a straight, solid shot. For me it's more about making a good swing. The ball doesn't exist. I just make a swing. If I look at anything I look at the clubface. Once I feel like I'm lined up to the target correctly, I'm not one of those players who constantly looks toward the target, constantly turning my neck and head toward the target. I don't need to. I'm thinking about good shots that I've hit on this hole in the past. I'm trying to reproduce that shot that I have a very vivid picture of in my mind. Also, while looking down at my clubface I usually have 1 or 2 swing thoughts: Usually a backswing thought and a downswing thought. I used to go to The Players Championship every year. What I got most from watching the pros was that they looked like they were just making a practice swing when they swung at the ball. Like the ball wasn't there, it was merely along the arc of their swing. I only ever saw them swing hard when they were on the tee on a Par 5 or long Par 4. I think this influenced me to ignore the ball. If I make a good swing the ball will be struck.

Yes, I know, I'm posting to a very old thread. Couldn't find anything current on this topic. I can relate to the "hitting" feels vs the "swinging" feels. As a child, I played baseball before I played golf. As a right handed player, everything was done "actively" with the right arm and hand while the lower body and left arm and hand "felt" passively involved. I could throw a curve ball before I first held a golf club in my hands (at the age of 11) and tried to hit something that was much smaller than a baseball and was on the ground. So for most of my junior years as a golfer I "felt" like I was making a baseball swing at the ball. My right hand and arm were "active" in takeaway, backswing and downswing. I had no concept or "feel" of using the left side and definitely never tried to "actively" pivot and clear my left hip while keeping my arms and hands passive and "along for the ride." I managed to shoot even par a couple of times (during tournament play) as a high school golfer and could break 80 at least once per week. But I didn't "feel" like a good golfer because I was inconsistent. And I had no intellectual understanding of basic golf fundamentals and I didn't understand why I hit duck hooks off the tee 30% of the time and overcooked a lot of my shots in general. I didn't know that I could weaken my grip or make other modifications to set up that could modify my ball flight in emergency situations like water hazards or O.B. to the left or right. I had only one shot: a draw that more often than not turned into a big hook. I had never tried to "swing" a golf club with the left arm "feel" during the backswing and then a transition and downswing "feel" like I was using an active lower body hip-clearing pivot (with passive feeling arms and hands) to shallow out the club and get the club on plane (in the slot) before impact. Later in life, in my late 30's and early 40's, when I had more time to work on my game, I experimented with "swinging" and more "active" left-sided feels. Keeping the right side passive felt weird and took a lot of practice (3 years) to ingrain, but eventually I could break 80 with this method as well and could hit a reliable fade or push fade when needed. I finally had a shot I could hit off the tee on those dogleg rights and I could "cut the corner." My left sided swing was very loopy. Very Jim Furyk, Ryan Moore. Lots of people said "nice shot" during this phase of my golfing development but nobody ever said "nice swing." Having hit a dead end in my game recently and feeling pretty lost (never quite being able to feel like I'm swinging with my left side while keeping my right side passive) I've returned to the "feels" of my junior golf days. I feel like I'm trying to hit (active use of right arm, wrist and hand) a baseball that's on the ground again. Much flatter swing. No loop. Less angular variation between backswing and downswing. I bend over a little more at address. The backswing feels flatter. And on the downswing I don't just "feel" like I'm firing the lower body and allowing the arms and hands to get a free ride. I "feel" like I'm "hitting" the ball with my right hand. Like I wish I had 3 right hands. I focus on preventing my head from moving past the ball. I "feel" like my lower body is static. Of course, it is anything but. "Swing left" or "hit left" is a dominant feel. So far so good. Not crazy about the more bent over posture but happy to be able to use a slightly stronger left hand grip than I was using with the more "left sided" feel swing. I guess everybody's "swing feels" and "swing thoughts" are unique. Like fingerprints.

Pretty funky at the top but I love his finish. I could honestly watch this swing all day. When you cross the line at the top, does it mean that you have to have a lot more lateral lower body movement (on the downswing) to avoid coming over the top? Is that what's happening here and allowing him to find the slot like a PGA Tour pro? If he just rotated without lateral he'd be over-the-top? Why doesn't he look as Hip Bumpy as say Tom Lehman? He rotates more?

I've been attempting to make a swing in which my backswing is less upright and steep and a closer match to my downswing so that I don't have to be as athletic (as Fred Couples, Bubba, Furyk, and Ryan Moore who have large angular differences (loopiness) between backswing and through swing and have great rhythm and timing). Is it true that flaring my right foot at address will not help me in this regard and will lead to too much of a weight shift onto the right foot at the completion of the backswing? This is one of the recommendations in Jim Hardy's somewhat antiquated (10 years old?) book. He recommends only flaring the lead foot in the "one-plane swing" as he calls it. The flat swing requires more upper torso movement while the lower body stays more static? To flare the rear foot or not to flare the rear foot? That is the question. I guess it depends on what you're using as your dominant engine to power the swing? And other characteristics?

Just got his "The Plane Truth" book a few days ago. I guess it's kind of an older book. So far the book hasn't been as enlightening as I had hoped. Some interesting ideas. Especially the ones about how you should have a different type of grip, set up, spine angle. weight shift, foot flare, method of initiating the downswing, etc. depending on which type of swing you have. While I do agree that a more one-plane swing is theoretically more repeatable (less compensations to get the club from upright backswing to more shallow downswing, less loopiness) I do have some doubts. For starters, he says that you have to be more athletic and flexible to be a one-planer. But isn't that the whole point of the more one-plane swing? That you don't have to be so athletic and dependent upon timing? Isn't that why Matt Kuchar went to a more one-plane swing? So he wouldn't have to depend on his athleticism? Which declines with age. Also, Hardy says that with the one-plane swing the downswing is not initiated with the lower body, but rather with the upper torso. As a lifetime two-planer I can't really imagine what this would be like to initially keep my lower body static. Seems like I would just not have any power and would be attempting to hit from the top and come in too steep and OTT. But I guess it makes sense. You wouldn't need to use your hip rotation to shallow out the club if you're already very flat and shallow. I guess it would feel more like hitting a baseball to a two-planer? I'm guessing it would feel like you're hitting it more with your right hand? Making you wish you had 3 right hands? Looking forward to reading the book further.

Fundamentally it makes sense. I flare both feet and I feel it allows me to swing like a younger man. More around my body.

Probably going to go out next week and watch Web.com 2nd Stage Q-School at Southern Hills Plantation in Brooksville, Florida. I went two years ago and I enjoyed it and learned more in this quiet setting (watching the pros) than in some of the PGA Tour stops I've been to. Watching these guys quietly going about their business without all the hoopla and crowds. They'll be playing it down on dormant bermuda fairways. Very tight lies. Not sure if the rye grass has come up yet on the greens.

I guess nobody has a shag bag anymore? All the mini tour (Florida Space Coast Tour) players I used to watch practicing in the early 1980's had their own leather shag bags. You could find them at the back of the driving range on any given Sunday afternoon hitting shot after shot until dark. I don't think they thought they were "wasting time."

I guess the title of this thread is not accurate. It should read, "Advantages/Disadvantages of the Sam Snead/Nicklaus Head/Chin Swivel at set up/address. (Before the takeaway and backswing)

1. Does this movement cause you to take the club back more inside? (for me, that's a good thing when I'm trying to draw the ball, as my swing tends to be too "out-to-in" like Ryan Moore or Jim Furyk.) 2. Because your head/chin already swivels to the right when you've completed your backswing, is this step even necessary? 3. If you're trying to hit a fade and have made set up changes (playing the ball more forward, aiming left, and in some cases even slightly opening the face) does swiveling your head/chin to the right before you begin the takeaway make it harder to "fade" the ball? 4. Will a player who utilizes a "right forearm takeaway" feel instead of a "one-piece takeaway" feel benefit from this classic Sam Snead/Jack Nicklaus move of tilting the chin/head to the right at set up? 5. Although tilting your head/chin to the right at address seems to make it easier to keep the head "behind" the ball prior to impact, does it inhibit in any way your pivoting, left hip clearing movement to power the swing?

"These marquee players are especially good."

I Let me try to clarify: We have a lot of pine trees that line the fairways here in Florida (pretty much everywhere in the South). Fairways cut out of very thick pine woods---think Augusta or TPC Stadium Course. The push draw off the tee doesn't always draw (even for players on these developmental tours like E-Golf and Web.com) and then you're left with the push in the right rough. When you're drive is on the right side of the fairway with overhanging tree limbs blocking your "stock 5 yard draw" approach you kind of have to cut it. I recently attended a 2nd stage Q-school event and I found the shots they hit to have quite a bit of movement....mostly left. I saw a lot of draws with 20 yards of movement. There was about a 15mph-20mph wind out there and it was actually a pretty open course. You must be talking about completely windless conditions. For the ball to move only 5 yards on a 200 yard iron shot, I'd say that's dead calm wind conditions, or maybe downwind, unless you're holding your push draw against a left to right breeze which I suppose could account for a shot that's virtually straight. Obviously wedges are going to go pretty straight. I'm thinking of shots in the 175-300 yard range. 5 yards of movement on a 300 yard drive is common on the web.com tour? Really? Is this at the indoor golf course in Dubai? Bubba Watson works the ball a lot. So does Ricky Fowler. I guess they're the super elite 5% who are so good that they don't have to just hit their stock shot (comfort zone) every time.

Thanks for answering my questions, Mike. It would be interesting to see if Matt could play a fairly tight course like Harbor Town (lots of overhanging tree limbs and tree lined fairways) by just hitting his stock 5 yard push draw (really just a straight shot) all day long. Maybe on these desert courses the player isn't as obstructed (on approach shots from the first cut or rough) by overhanging tree limbs and there's no incentive to work the ball? Also, it's interesting to hear that even if there was a water hazard on Matt's left, he would still hit his stock draw, rather than try to take it out of play by hitting a fade. Was Matt playing cast irons like Pings---that might have (marginally) assisted him in hitting it so straight? Or was he using forged muscle back or cut muscle back irons? Were there any equipment characteristics that were allowing him to hit it so straight? Extra stiff iron shafts? X-100's? What would you estimate his driver swing speed to be? 115mph? Thanks, again. Yes, and I totally agree with your premise: "Ballstriking" and GIR are what these guys do better than the mere mortal golfers who wish they could play like them.

1. Did he or any of the other players hit any "stingers?" I watched a 2nd stage Q-school in 2012 and I saw quite a few 3 wood stingers hit off the tee. Granted the fairways were pretty hard (dormant bermuda) and it was moderately windy. 2. Did he move the ball forward or back in his stance or make any other changes to set up or posture to control ball flight? Or did he just hit his standard push draw all day, regardless of wind or other factors, ball played in the same places according to club used? 3. Did he hit any fades? Fade tee shots on dog leg rights? Or did he just go with his stock shot regardless of the situation? 4. What kind of grip (weak, neutral, strong) did he use? 5. Did he seem completely engrossed (blissfully so) in what he was doing? 6. When he couldn't hit his stock shot was he still able to recover and make par or birdie? Thanks for sharing your Monday Qualifier experience. Very interesting.

Sounds logical. Makes sense. Better players naturally tend to draw the ball because they hit the ball from the inside? Because they know how to start the transition and downswing by leading with the lower body by executing a left-hip-clearing pivot? Or because they have learned (found it in the dirt after 750,000 swings) to release the club more naturally and powerfully? Or both?

If you've already gripped the club in the left hand, doesn't opening the face at address just strengthen your left hand grip (more clockwise) and therefore offset any extra lofting of the clubface by opening it? When I look in the mirror, having already gripped the club with my fairly weak left hand grip and I open the face as I address the ball, this is what happens: My grip strengthens, even though the face is open. I know have a "Neutral" grip. When I close the face at address, my left hand grip becomes more weak--- more counterclockwise with the V pointing up at the chin. So if you've already gripped the club and then you close or open the face, does this really change anything? Closing the face weakens the grip and offsets any change at impact. Opening the face strengthens the grip and offsets any change. Mr. Nicklaus? A little help here? Why do most good ball strikers address the ball with the clubface open? So they can be free to release it as hard as they want without closing the clubface too early? Wasn't that your explanation in "Golf My Way?"

All Putting Tour: 3% (Tiger Woods, Ben Crane, Freddy Jacobson, David Toms, Rickie Fowler, a few others) Most of the other top 150-200 money list players would immediately retire (goodbye sponsors) and live comfortably for the rest of their lives in gated communities like Isleworth and Lake Nona or some of those Jupiter haunts (Seminole?) or perhaps Sea Island, Georgia, playing golf like the athletes that they are---mostly walking and trying to make that little ball fly miles through the air. They would leave the more sedentary and stationary part of the game known as putting (a favorite of old men who can't make the little ball fly great distances in the air anymore) to a different sort of competitor. Someone (with out of date clothing, think plaid, perhaps from a different generation) willing to spend 12 hour days standing (with bad posture) in one spot making that ball fall into the 4.5 inch hole. These sort of chaps would be more like professional billiard players. This would be a great boon to the chiropractors and massage therapists who would treat these players for their various neck and back pains from stooping over a golf ball for hours on end, as they attempted to master the art of the putt and of reading greens. The different putter lengths and grips might keep the T.V. viewer entertained for the annually televised "World Putting Championship." It would be as popular as the "World's Strongest Man" contest or "Remax Long Drive World Championship." All Ballstriking Tour: 97% of the players from the Top 150 PGA Tour Money List.

"Kenny Perry (a pronounced drawer) was playing at Doral a few years ago and someone asked him what he does with a pin on the right side of the green. He said he aimed at the flag and if his ball didn't draw, he got lucky, but otherwise he was content to have a 25-footer for birdie." So what did Kenny do when his stock push draws off the tee during a round weren't drawing and he was landing on the far right side of the fairway or the right rough? If there were overhanging trees and limbs how was he hitting his approach shots into the Par 4's and Par 5's from the right side of the fairway without hitting the trees? So he would have still hit his stock push draw? How exactly? I'm sure he had a pretty good emergency fade he could hit. I'm sure he knew how to use any of the shot shaping strategies you've mentioned. I'm guessing his grip was at least neutral. I would love to know what it was about his swing that made it draw biased. Was it his grip? Or his set up? If he did play the ball farther back in his stance did he open his face 8 degrees to offset the delofting outward angle of attack? And what was the deal with that little pause at the top of the backswing? Was that conscious? Didn't Jay Haas have one of those weird pauses at the top too? You don't see those kind of swing tics anymore on tour. The downswing seems more like a powerful recoil from the backswing without a pause. As a hooker, the weak grip has been my savior for the past two years and allowed me to hit controllable push draws and fades (with appropriate changes to set up for the fade ) when needed. But deep down, I knew that my super weak grip had to be scrapped and I needed to master a more neutral grip with my left heel pad on top of the shaft and thumb more aft instead of directly on top. I recently learned (in the dirt, trial and error) that I don't have to use a super weak grip (high up in the left palm) to keep the ball from starting left and hooking wildly---clubface closing too early---releasing too early. If I move the ball back in my stance and tilt my chin to the right (a la Nicklaus and others) to keep my head behind the ball, I can use a neutral grip. Because the ball is farther back in my stance the clubface doesn't have time to close as soon like it was when I was playing the ball at an orthodox position (closer to the heel). This gives me a lower ball flight. Much needed as I've always considered my ball flight to be too high and I've always envied golfers with that nice low trajectory. Not sure if playing the ball back like this will work for the 3 wood and Driver. Might have to keep the grip weak for those clubs. Not sure you can play the ball in the middle of your stance with a driver. Also, doesn't opening the face of a club (that's addressing a ball in the middle of your stance) make you want to instinctively take it back more inside? It does for me. Golf seems very counter intuitive.

I bought a Taylormade Superfast 2.O TP Driver at Edwin Watts online store two years ago. It was offered as "New" and "in original packaging" but it arrived with a big scuff mark on the face. It didn't even have the type of shaft (Matrix HD-6) that was supposed to come factory. It had been reshafted. Why I didn't return it I will never know. The clank it made when struck sounded nothing like another "genuine" TM driver I owned. It had to be counterfit. Chinese copy. I never bought from Edwin Watts again. I've had better luck with Rock Bottom and "In the Hole." The prices that Global Golf charges for used golf equipment seems ridiculous. Caveat Emptor.

I feel like I can really go after my 3 wood off the tee. With the driver, unless it's a Par 5, I'm not going to go after it and really explode with the lower body for fear of blocking it right. I am much more timid off the tee on a Par 4 on these water lined or tree lined fairways we have here, with the driver. A miss left or right with the 3 wood is not going to end up in the trees. I might be in the rough, but not in the next zip code. With the 3 wood, I tee it up so that it's only millimeters off the grass. Teeing it up higher usually results in a pop up. I don't take a divot with my 3 wood, even when it's teed up so low.....I'm not Sergio. I like hitting my stock draw so 13 degrees is not enough loft, unless I'm hitting a fade. I recently bought the TM Rocketballz Stage 2, 13 degree (adjustable to 14.5 degree) 3 wood recently with hopes of getting driver distance off the tee, but I ended up having to adjust it back up to 14.5 degrees. The only way I could consistently get the 13 degree in the air was to set up left and hit a fade. I had the same problem when I bought a Cleveland Classic 9 degree Driver awhile back......not enough loft to hit my draw. I had to fade it. A very long fade but the fade is not really my comfort shot. The fade is a specialty shot I only use on dogleg rights or to negotiate trees or take advantage of left-to-right wind. It is pretty amazing when you hit this new TM 3 wood on the screws and get that trampoline effect. I've never seen a ball move like that, like a scalded dog. It's a lot of fun when you hit the sweet spot and hit a 3 wood 275 yards, where shots from your driver from 2011 used to land.

Brick and Mortar retailers can't compete with the online retailers. Let's see, do I pay $200 for last year's TM Rocketballz Stage 2 fairway wood or $89 online with free shipping at Rock Bottom Golf? Of course, my $89 purchase of this club got me a stock "Stiff" shaft that is too whippy for me and feels and plays like a "Regular." Maybe a demo at Dick's would have been the way to go. But I doubt they would have had any X-Stiffs on the shelf. Would have still had to buy it at Rock Bottom. Only suckers or people with lots of disposable income pay retail.....that's not me.

Hand strength and its relation to grip preference: I believe Gary Woodland (one of the strongest, most athletic golfers on the PGA Tour) uses a weak grip (left hand turned more to the left, V pointing at his chin, one knuckle visible, thumb directly on top of the grip). But then again Dustin Johnson (another tremendous athlete) uses a very strong grip. Maybe it has more to do with how the player releases the club? Or whether the club at the top is laid off, perfectly parallel, or across the line? Clubface closed (like DJ), square or open at the top? And not so much how strong his hands are? When I turn my left hand clockwise to even a neutral position, my grip feels very stiff and I feel like I'm holding the club uncomfortably tight. My shots tend to go low and left. Weakening my left hand---moving it counter clockwise with the thumb straight down the shaft, short thumb position, makes it all better. Comfort and a nice high, slightly pushed draw. I guess grip (weak, neutral or strong) is a preference, like you said.

For me, holding it that much in the fingers with the left hand makes the grip too strong---V pointing at the right shoulder. I draw the ball and I'm always guarding against a hook so a strong left hand grip is a no go unless I want to hit duck hooks. I tend to hold it a little more palmy but I still understand that only the 3rd, 4th and 5th finger (of the left hand) are responsible for holding the grip against the lower palm. The index finger and thumb don't do anything, just rest there. I suppose I could use a strong or neutral grip but I would have to address the ball with a slightly opened clubface or make some other compensation (massive lower body rotation, which I'm not flexible enough for or perhaps a big lateral Tom Lehman type leg drive?) I understand that Jack Nicklaus once said "I've never seen a really good player set it square or closed at address." I have always had the clubface square or even a little closed---maybe that's just one of the reasons I never made it onto a college golf team or never broke 70. That might certainly help explain my tendency to hook a lot. Just one of many possible fundamental variables---stance, grip, alignment, shoulder alignment, attack angle, spine angle, foot flare, takeaway, wrist set, backswing, downswing, impact, release type, etc. But back to the grip, I think players who slice the ball too much (or hit weak fades) and don't have the hand strength to support a weak grip would benefit from the type of grip you have pictured there. I just have the opposite problem it seems, unless I make some other tweaks---ie. clubface at address.