PS90

\ I agree that our legal system is probably as good as it gets. That whole problem, and the reason I would be worried about this, if I was the golfer, is your first sentence. If it goes to trial, then a jury gets to decide. It's very possible that the majority of the members of the jury know NOTHING about golf. How are they supposed to make an informed decision? This happened in my profession just recently - not a jury decision, but a bunch of law makers outlawed horse slaughter, because "animal rights activists" thought it would be a good idea. Now, these lawmakers who made the decision know nothing about the horse industry, and what they didn't take into account are all the horses out there now that aren't worth anything, and are being let go in the forest because no one wants to pay for their feed. So they starve to death - a much worse death than being processed for meat. My point - maybe bad shots in golf happen all the time, but is the jury (who is possibly completely ignorant concerning golf)- going to know that?

I agree that the lady with a neighboring house should be assuming risk, but I also completely agree with you - in that, if you pay someone to perform a sanctioned event or sport on their land, then that person/company that you paid should assume all liability for uncontrolled/errant shots, since that is the nature of golf. Again, I don't have a legal reference, unless I look it up, but I know that cars and/or even people have been hit by foul balls or home runs many times outside of baseball parks. But I have never heard of the batter being held responsible for the ball. It is an assumed risk to be around the ballpark, and at worst, the baseball field assumes responsibility.

I don't know that this is universally true, considering the gun range analogy. I would have to do some digging to find the reference, but I know of at least one case in which this occurred in WA state, and the range was found liable, due to inadequate facilities, rather than the shooter liable for being a crappy shot. I that case were extended to a golf course, then it would make the course liable for the people it lets hit golf balls on its course. Just sayin'

I don't know if this applies to where you are or not, but most of the Costco's in my area have recently stocked the final batches of Nike's Ignite balls. Nike has discontinued this line, but they had a ton of them in stock at my Costco yesterday. $14.99/12 for 3-piece balls is the cheapest I've seen. The Nike PowerDistance balls are a 2-piece, BTW.

DocWu or anyone else, Does anyone know what the golf course's (the place that this occured) stance is on this issue? Are they taking a stance at all? It would seem like they would be in a predicament, considering that most people who live right next to a golf course are often long-term members of the course, so they may side with the homeowner. But, at the same time, if they do side with the home owner, then they might be afraid of losing other members, who are worried about playing golf on their course with the potential liability this lawsuit may create. Of course, they could just be Switzerland on the whole issue. I'm just curious to know what a golf course's stance on a legal issue like this would be.

I've heard really good things about the Nickent's, too. I don't think it's Nickent hate, I think people are leery of buying what's left of their stuff, since they are out of business now. That said, I went with the Callaway's.

I would buy them for that price - if they play well. I agree with recyclable-material goals, but I'm not going to buy an expensive ball that feels like crap of the club, just for eco-friendliness. Any idea if they are any good - as golf balls?

Hey guys, I think I'm starting to figure this S&T; thing out, because I'm starting to hit good shots (finally), and, when I hit it well, it's a lot longer than before. My new problem is that, now I'm to the point of hitting one of two shots: a good hit, and a horribly thin shot. I'm sure that I'm doing the exact same wrong thing each time, because it's always the same mis-hit. My question (again, I realize a video would help, but I don't have the time or adequate tech to do that, sorry): Does anyone know of a common S&T; problem that results in thin hits? I work really hard on the hip slide, so I don't think it's that my weight is too far back; I'm actually thinking that it may occur when my hips "outrace" my swing - therefore, my upper body is too angled. Thoughts? Thanks very much for any ideas. I'm trying to figure this out, and with no S&T; instructors anywhere near my area, any tips will help immensely. Thanks.

I totally agree. I find myself leaning WAY back in order to shallow-out my swing, just to not hit the ball super-thin. Whereas I would be normally taking a decent divot, here I smack the club head HARD on the mat, so I had to compensate by trying to hit shallower at the ball. I could see how hitting a driver would be fine, but my course's driving range, not only has mats, but also won't let you use a driver to practice! The back of the range is too short or something like that. I gotta find a better course...

I personally have a 14-hole divider bag, and used to place all the clubs just like most of you guys are doing, but I found that it got to be a pain in the ass to dig out the 6 or 7 or 8 irons that happened to be smack in the middle of the bag, and that meant digging around through all the clubs heads to get to them. Maybe I'm just lazy. So, now I arrange them with the driver in the middle-top slot, and my woods going down the middle, vertically. Then the shorter irons are staggered, evens and odds on each side, in the perimeter slots. That way, it's easy to grab a wood, since they are longer in the middle, but the irons are along the outside, so no bangin' around.

Thanks for the help guys. James, I bet you're right, I'm swinging incorrectly with the hybrids, but that's the problem. For some reason, I just can't seem to make a decent swing with them. I don't know if trying 3 and 4i is a good idea or not. I'd like to try some out, but the nearest shop that I know of is about a three hour drive, over a mountain pass, so that's not feasible anytime soon. You guys are probably right about buying irons made by a company that is now out of business, it's just that I've heard those Nickents are pretty nice irons. I think I'll try the Callaways, though. I can always get a couple upgraded hybrids later on, if I suck with the 3 and 4i. My current irons and hybrids are Wilson Prostaffs, so I need to upgrade anyway...

Sorry to start a boring, unoriginal thread, but I need all the help I can get. I'm looking to upgrade my irons, and get try a set with a 3i and 4i instead of hybrids. I don't know what my mental block is with hybrids, I'm just not good with them. Anyway, I would really appreciate some quick advise - if given the choice, would you guys buy a set of Nickent 4DX irons, or a set of Callaway fusion irons? Both are about the same price (Nickents are a little bit less). The company is still honoring Nickent's warranties, despite being out of business (or so I've been told) Thanks very much for any opinions.

Hey guys, Hopefully one of the S&T; experts can give me some ideas here. I realize a video clip would be a lot more helpful, but I'll try to explain. I went out in some decent weather for the first time since last October and tried the S&T; swing for the first time. Turned out to be a disaster I have no idea what my problem(s) were, but I was basically hitting two shots - BADLY topping the ball - to the extent that it skidded along the ground for about 20 feet, OR a big push (and even some that were a big push with a slice). Does anyone have an idea what I'm doing wrong? Or does it sound like there are just too many swing errors going on to explain it all? When swinging conventionally in years past, I very rarely hit the ball thin, and my biggest problem was a pretty severe pull-slice. Right now, I would rather swing like I used to with a bad slice, than squib the ball along the ground. I think one major problem was that I was overly-exaggerating the weight-forward - to the extent that my club head was coming down basically right onto the ball - pretty much skulling/blading the ball right into the ground, which resulted in a seriously topped ball. Does anyone agree? That might also explain why I was pushing it so far to the left (I'm a lefty), since I was under the impression that a push was caused by hitting too far back in the swing-circle. But, then, the question is - how was it slicing as well? I thought it was near impossible to slice on the inside-out (or back half) part of the circle. Is that not right? Or was my clubface angle WAY too open? Someone help! Please! Thanks for any thoughts anyone has.

Hey lefty, Again, I am far from an expert in anything related to S&T;, but in the DVD's, Mike and Andy discuss the difference between a straight draw and a push on at least three separate occasions - and, from what I can tell, the only real difference is the face angle of the club should be slightly more closed for a straight draw. Myself, I will be very happy if S&T; causes me to push or even hook it a little bit - up till now, 90% of my shots are pulls or huge slices. Don't get to try till the snow melts, though...

Since the process of making them are very different, the alloys involved are slightly different, and the hardness of the metal is affected by the length of time and amount of heat applied during that process. The end result is that forged clubs are slightly (some would even say negligibly) softer than cast clubs. Whether this affects the feel or performance is hard to say. More likely, it is a psychosomatic response to the golfer "knowing" that the club is forged rather than cast, or vice versa.

Thanks, DefLord and Shanks, I'll give the Pinnacles a shot, just 'cuz they were free. I second the vote for the Srixon AD333's - semi- inexpensive and worked great for me last year.

Man, I'm hoping you're right. Can't wait for spring...

Does anyone have an opinion on a brand of balls called Pinnacle? I have never used them, but someone who doesn't know much about golf gave them to me as a Christmas present. I think they are called Pinnacle Gold Soft. Are they worth playing for a round or two? Thanks.

David, Thanks very much for the lesson - makes complete sense, and it agrees with what Mike and Andy are teaching in S&T.; And it also agrees with iacas' and i-Guy's opinions that Brady Riggs and his posse are morons. I guess I don't get it - compared to you guys, I am a complete noob and don't know much about golf. But the concept made sense to me, so how do these so-called "experts" have it so wrong?

I pretty much wear my wedding ring constantly, except when I play. As a lefty, it seems to get in the way of my fingers when I interlock them. I wonder if other lefties have this problem?

Thanks a lot, i-Guy and iacas, At least you guys are backing up my impression of S&T.; I think it could be an issue of - one naysayer writes an article, even if its totally wrong, then all the other naysayers just mindlessly spew out the same reasons. Or, "monkey see, monkey do" Makes my feel better that the experts on here agree, at least.

Thanks for the welcome guys! I hope to learn all I can from the experts like you guys!

Hi Guys, I have another question for the S&T; experts on here, whether you are pro or con. And I apologize if this has already been mentioned in this thread - I read through most of the posts on here, but I'll admit that I did skim a lot. In at least 3 or 4 separate articles, by 3 or 4 separate writers, I have read that, if you have a problem with an ongoing slice (which is my problem) that the S&T; pattern will not help and will only make your swing a lot worse. Here is an example - there are others I've read that are more in-depth, but this is the first one I could find (bottom of the second paragraph of the article): http://www.•••••••••••••.com/2008/st...wing-problems/ So, this question is more for debate purposes, but, it seems to me that, according to Mike and Andy - that one of the big draws of S&T; is the weight-forward pattern, which, by paraphrasing them, "Would have led to a generation of drawers, rather than a generation of slicers". So, it seems to me that they are saying that one of the biggest improvements using S&T; will be people who slice a lot - just the opposite of these "review" articles on S&T.; Which is it? Thanks for the info, again.

Happened to me just about three days ago I have a spot in the house that I can swing and not break stuff, at least if I use a PW or 9I or something short. The other day, however, my lazy-a__ dog was laying right in my swing spot. Turns out he's old and blind, so I feel kinda bad for the guy, and didn't want to make him move. So, like an idiot, I not only decided to move to the dining room, I decided to swing a 5W around as well. No surprise what happened - took a backswing and completely shattered the glass fixture on the hanging light/chandelier thing. Took a bunch of little dents out of the expensive dining room table and got glass everywhere . Can't wait for spring around here.

Thanks a lot for all the excellent info, guys. Actually, some of the best (very rare) shots I've had have been with that Alien golf wedge, but I still don't like the feel of it at all.