My Swing (Nosevi)

**Nosevi** · February 10, 2014

I've been Playing Golf for: 3 years

My current handicap index or average score is: H'cap not that relevant, ours are very different to yours. Score around par on a good day at my local course, a few over at the Championship course where I get coaching

My typical ball flight is: pretty straight on a good day, pretty high launch though

The shot I hate or the "miss" I'm trying to reduce/eliminate is: going ok tbh, just thought I'd post up for interest and to see what other had to say. Never have too much info :)

Almost didn't post up, some of you guys really go after the ball pretty hard and my swing looks a bit 'tame' by comparison. Second vid just posted to add sound (first was recorded in an app). Ball flight posted below to give an idea of my 'numbers'. Pretty high for an 8 iron but seems to work for me.

Videos:

adding a bit of sound......

Ball flight from this sesh. 8 iron in both the vids and launch data. Pretty high launch, more like a 9 iron really. Can hit it lower but a high launch seems to work best for me.

***iacas*** · February 10, 2014

Tough to say given the shutter speed, but it appears that a little work on Key #3 (the shaft lines up with your lead shoulder prematurely, before impact) would be helpful.

http://purestrike5sk.com/

**Nosevi** · February 10, 2014

Tough to say given the shutter speed, but it appears that a little work on Key #3 (the shaft lines up with your lead shoulder prematurely, before impact) would be helpful.

http://purestrike5sk.com/

Thanks mate.

I've looked at this a bit but find my spin numbers just tend to sky rocket when I add too much forward shaft lean. Those 'suck back' shots look really cool but are largely pointless, I prefer the ball to stop as close to where I land it as possible. Looking on high speed video cameras my hands are a fraction ahead of the ball (any scooping and I wouldn't get the contact on the ball) but it's a close run thing. My only way to get the spin numbers down is to back off on the power but I tend not to commit to the shot as well. My coach has suggested I get my clubs set with what we sometimes call 'tour loft' over here - a couple of degrees less loft than standard irons. May be worth considering?

My mum was following Luke Donald round in a tournament not so long ago and she commented on how high he hit the ball. I guess his hands are a bit behind what is considered ideal as well. Maybe I should just learn to live with it....

***iacas*** · February 10, 2014

I've looked at this a bit but find my spin numbers just tend to sky rocket when I add too much forward shaft lean. Those 'suck back' shots look really cool but are largely pointless, I prefer the ball to stop as close to where I land it as possible. Looking on high speed video cameras my hands are a fraction ahead of the ball (any scooping and I wouldn't get the contact on the ball) but it's a close run thing. My only way to get the spin numbers down is to back off on the power but I tend not to commit to the shot as well. My coach has suggested I get my clubs set with what we sometimes call 'tour loft' over here - a couple of degrees less loft than standard irons. May be worth considering?

The bits about adding spin only make sense if your AoA increases more than your dynamic loft decreases (assuming other factors like centeredness of contact, clubhead speed, etc. remain similar).

In other words (assuming a face/path match up to make the math easier):

1) Dynamic Loft 25°, AoA -1° = Spin Loft 26°

2) Dynamic Loft 20°, AoA -8° = Spin Loft 28°

3) Dynamic Loft 20°, AoA -3° = Spin Loft 23°

Shot 3 will spin the least. Shot 2 will spin the most.

If you're at Shot 1 currently, you have to increase AoA more than you decrease dynamic loft to spin the ball more. That would be rare.

My mum was following Luke Donald round in a tournament not so long ago and she commented on how high he hit the ball. I guess his hands are a bit behind what is considered ideal as well. Maybe I should just learn to live with it....

FWIW, that's not the best camera angle. Move it a foot left of square to face-on and it'll look like he has a TON of shaft lean. The point remains:

You can play reasonably good golf with a well-timed flip, but I'm not aware of any PGA Tour players who line the shaft up prior to impact with their irons.

**Nosevi** · February 10, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

I've looked at this a bit but find my spin numbers just tend to sky rocket when I add too much forward shaft lean. Those 'suck back' shots look really cool but are largely pointless, I prefer the ball to stop as close to where I land it as possible. Looking on high speed video cameras my hands are a fraction ahead of the ball (any scooping and I wouldn't get the contact on the ball) but it's a close run thing. My only way to get the spin numbers down is to back off on the power but I tend not to commit to the shot as well. My coach has suggested I get my clubs set with what we sometimes call 'tour loft' over here - a couple of degrees less loft than standard irons. May be worth considering?

The bits about adding spin only make sense if your AoA increases more than your dynamic loft decreases (assuming other factors like centeredness of contact, clubhead speed, etc. remain similar).

In other words (assuming a face/path match up to make the math easier):

1) Dynamic Loft 25°, AoA -1° = Spin Loft 26°

2) Dynamic Loft 20°, AoA -8° = Spin Loft 28°

3) Dynamic Loft 20°, AoA -3° = Spin Loft 23°

Shot 3 will spin the least. Shot 2 will spin the most.

If you're at Shot 1 currently, you have to increase AoA more than you decrease dynamic loft to spin the ball more. That would be rare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nosevi

My mum was following Luke Donald round in a tournament not so long ago and she commented on how high he hit the ball. I guess his hands are a bit behind what is considered ideal as well. Maybe I should just learn to live with it....

FWIW, that's not the best camera angle. Move it a foot left of square to face-on and it'll look like he has a TON of shaft lean. The point remains:

You can play reasonably good golf with a well-timed flip, but I'm not aware of any PGA Tour players who line the shaft up prior to impact with their irons.

Thanks, I'll look at it :)

I only really know what happens to my shots, I practice at the range pretty much every day and use my GC2 almost every time - when I punch it lower, I spin it faster. Take all that you've said, I must be adding something else into the equation. Maybe I naturally hit it harder as I'm striking down on it? Distance is less though but that's due to the higher spin rate, ball speed is about the same.

Regarding the Donald thing, sorry little confused - probably just me being dull. You're saying that if you were to look from a little ahead of square it would 'appear' that he has lots of shaft lean (due to the angle between his forearm and club shaft if looking from face on?) Are you saying that would mean he does have more shaft lean or just that he appears to have more shaft lean? Surely it's the latter? My understanding is that Donald's hands are a bit behind average at impact (not behind the ball, just behind the hands of most of his contemporaries), hence a pretty high ball flight.

Lee Westwood has a funky little scoop thing going on that does much the same thing, doesn't it? And Rory can sometimes look like he's got a bit of a 'scoop' to his swing, also a very high ball flight. But I take your point that with none of these is it before the ball.

Maybe I'm flirting with it a bit. The shots posted were a few weeks back when it was a joyous 2 or 3 degrees C here so distance isn't a snag with 160 yrds carry with an 8 iron in those temps, regardless of the ball flight being a tad high. But into the wind I often wish that it was down a bit generally so I don't have to compensate so much when I need to keep it low. I'll look at what you've said and see what I can come up with, cheers for your time :)

p.s. When it says Pro on the site do you mind me asking - are you a touring pro or teaching pro? I know a fair few very good players (I'm coached at our National Academy where our nation team train and a few touring pros also use the facilities). Very few go into the nitty gritty of spin loft vs dynamic loft etc. Our coaches do though. Am I right in assuming teaching pro?

***iacas*** · February 10, 2014

I only really know what happens to my shots, I practice at the range pretty much every day and use my GC2 almost every time - when I punch it lower, I spin it faster. Take all that you've said, I must be adding something else into the equation. Maybe I naturally hit it harder as I'm striking down on it? Distance is less though but that's due to the higher spin rate, ball speed is about the same.

Yes, something else is at play there if you're spinning it more.

You're saying that if you were to look from a little ahead of square it would 'appear' that he has lots of shaft lean (due to the angle between his forearm and club shaft if looking from face on?)

The other way. The camera is a bit right of directly face-on, which lessens the appearance of shaft lean.

It's a matter of a few degrees, though, and not worth discussing - my picture demonstrates that even Luke Donald achieves Key #3 - inline impact - and does not line the shaft up prematurely.

Lee Westwood has a funky little scoop thing going on that does much the same thing, doesn't it?

No. Lee has inline impact as well. Remember it's the lead shoulder more than the actual wrist or elbow conditions. Before the ball, yes, that's half of it. The other is that the line doesn't actually involve their grip (strong grips tend to cup slightly while still being inline) and their elbow (Lee in particular), but rather the shaft and then from the butt of the club up to their lead shoulder.

p.s. When it says Pro on the site do you mind me asking - are you a touring pro or teaching pro? I know a fair few very good players (I'm coached at our National Academy where our nation team train and a few touring pros also use the facilities). Very few go into the nitty gritty of spin loft vs dynamic loft etc. Our coaches do though. Am I right in assuming teaching pro?

Yes, and Director of Instructor Development, too. I train other instructors as well.

**Nosevi** · February 11, 2014

Quote:

Yes, and Director of Instructor Development, too. I train other instructors as well.

Cool. Had a quick browse round your site, looks interesting.

Over here the PGA have instruction pretty much nailed down, there are some other organisations like yours but none have really got off the ground, everyone still thinks you need to be a PGA Pro to be able to teach, I disagree - I've seen some pretty mediocre PGA instructors.

That said, my coach is a PGA Pro (head pro at our national training academy - where our elite squads train but open to other players as well) and is very good. Possibly not as technical in some areas as you appear to be but coaches from youngsters up to elite players and tour pros and gets good results. I got my initial handicap about 10 months ago having just played a bit socially for a couple of years previously and he's taken me from there to a 5.1 handicap in the 10 months and it's still dropping quite quickly. As you're probably aware that equates to something like a 1 or a 2 handicap over there due to the archaic way CONGU here calculate our handicaps (when will we catch up????). Sadly, I've just picked up an Achilles injury, hence the hanging on golf sites rather than golf courses, so it's likely to stall for a bit. Time for 6-8 weeks of chipping and putting, to be fair my short game needs the attention :)

Thanks again for your time and good luck with the instructing.

Pete

***iacas*** · August 1, 2015

So here's the synopsis of what's in the video:

Align your setup pieces (feet, knees, hips, shoulders). Can be left or right or square, just not every direction all at once.
Grip is palmy and weak. More in the fingers of the left hand, slightly stronger right hand so that your elbow can be softer at setup .
Push the hips forward (target) a few inches at setup to create more axis tilt at setup.
During the backswing let the pivot carry the hands back and in. You shove them out and up, losing pressure points.
Stop your backswing earlier. You cause chaos and "Very Bad Things™" by going on too far.
Hinge your wrists more. The softer elbow and the grip change will help with that.
On the downswing, slide your hips forward (keeping your head back) while you stab the pig (get your hands down faster). You'll see my lovely art in the video.

Everything bad in your swing is a result of your downswing being steep with your right elbow way around behind you. Your head goes forward late in your backswing and early downswing so that combined with the steep/across the line shaft means you're going to dig a huge divot and wipe across the ball unless you find a way to shallow things out. So… you yank off the wall, are slow to get your arms down, and stall your pivot (both getting the hips forward AND around) to give yourself time to "save" the shot. You don't get your weight forward, your pivot stall causes your forearms to rotate over each other very fast in the early follow through… etc.

I agree with @Phil McGleno above - it's the type of swing that's likely to peak at about a scratch handicap. I don't agree that you'll back slide much and have to be lousy for six months. This is the kind of change where you'll occasionally hit a HORRIBLE shot - like laying the sod over it with an 8I - but which most of your shots will tend to get slightly better over time. You'll still hit some slightly weird ones, but you shouldn't really see too much of an increase in your handicap, and it may in fact continue to trend downward. If it's 3% better, it's 3% better - something else shouldn't be 15% worse.

As I said I know you think highly of your instructors. If I was only allowed to say positive things about them… I wouldn't be able to say very much if they're at all happy with this swing. That's all I'll say publicly about that. This swing is going to severely limit your ability to play good high-level golf. You've gotten to this point largely because of your ability to generate clubhead speed and your hand/eye coordination. A lot of people with your impact position will fat and thin the ball all day.

Take it or leave it. If you have questions, ask and I'm happy to answer… for a bit. I gave you an hour of my time, and now more with typing this out. But as I said, it was a good exercise for me, and I may use your videos to help train other instructors. Take it or leave it - neither will offend me. I'm quite confident in what I've shared with you here, but if for whatever reason you decide it's trash, fine by me. I think if you were here in person you wouldn't, but… in-person stuff is far more interactive and I could answer your questions immediately, pull up any example I wanted, etc.

Good luck.

**mvmac** · August 2, 2015

Nice job with the cause and effect explanations @iacas . @Nosevi I hope you realize the value of what Erik gave you here. The information and how to go about doing it, this is far from your typical analysis. It'll be important to practice the pieces slowly and to make several rehearsals before you hit a ball. Don't just "try it" at full speed. Really change the picture, it'll be extremely helpful to your game. I know the video is a bit long but it's probably worth it to watch the first 5-10 minutes or the last 5 minutes a few more times. Can't hurt to see/hear it over and over again.

**Nosevi** · August 2, 2015

Nice job with the cause and effect explanations @iacas . @Nosevi I hope you realize the value of what Erik gave you here. The information and how to go about doing it, this is far from your typical analysis. It'll be important to practice the pieces slowly and to make several rehearsals before you hit a ball. Don't just "try it" at full speed. Really change the picture, it'll be extremely helpful to your game. I know the video is a bit long but it's probably worth it to watch the first 5-10 minutes or the last 5 minutes a few more times. Can't hurt to see/hear it over and over again.

I'm extremely grateful for the time spent and for Erik sharing his expertise. In hindsight I should have perhaps replied on here but I'm sure Erik will see it on the other thread. The cause and effect is key for me as is seeing it on video as I'm very much a visual learner. This gives me the 'why' I need to make each change which I really need. As I said on the other thread, don't judge my instructor by my failure to follow what he's been telling me. Hip bump to the left, spine tilt, grip, I can even post a short video of him showing me how far my backswing should be which is precisely where Erik has said. Then I step up, do absolutely none of it and somehow make the ball go straight and ask why do I need to change? I must be the most frustrating student he's ever had :-) What Erik has done is more than reinforce what my instructor has said, he's built on it and more importantly told me why I need to make these changes and that is key for me.

**k14** · August 2, 2015

Wow, great analysis. Very interesting video to watch, thanks @iacas ! That should keep @Nosevi busy for at least a few days. Look forward to following the progress.

**Nosevi** · August 2, 2015

Hip bump to the left, spine tilt, grip, I can even post a short video of him showing me how far my backswing should be which is precisely where Erik has said. Then I step up, do absolutely none of it and somehow make the ball go straight and ask why do I need to change? I must be the most frustrating student he's ever had

What Erik has done is more than reinforce what my instructor has said, he's built on it and more importantly told me why I need to make these changes and that is key for me.

Found it. This is how far he said it should feel to me at the top of my back swing. I'm a bit more flexible now so it's more where Erik has said it should feel. The thing was I went way past there, and still got the ball to go ok. What I like about Erik's analysis is that he's told me why it should only go to a certain point. My instructor possibly did, I really don't remember, but as the result of ignoring it was that the ball still went straight I did just that - I ignored it.

No more. The swing studio awaits, got a feeling this is going to take a bit of work

***iacas*** · August 2, 2015

No more. The swing studio awaits, got a feeling this is going to take a bit of work

**Nosevi** · August 2, 2015

[QUOTE name="Nosevi" url="/t/72433/my-swing-nosevi#post_1178507"] No more. The swing studio awaits, got a feeling this is going to take a bit of work :-) [/QUOTE] [CONTENTEMBED=/t/54840/simple-specific-slow-short-and-success-the-five-s-s-of-great-practice layout=block] [/CONTENTEMBED]

Thanks. Only read after working for a while today and will take on board tomorrow as I was probably going a bit fast. Changes feel strange but right. Hope that kinda makes sense :-)

**Nosevi** · August 2, 2015

I posted my analysis (almost 27 minutes) here: http://thesandtrap.com/t/72433/my-swing-nosevi#post_1178418 .

I don't think it's the type of change where you should shoot high scores for awhile before it clicks and you get better. I think you'll hit some WEIRD shots now and then, but on the whole, you should see slow and steady improvement.

Ok, Swing changes day 1:

Having seen Erik's analysis was 27 minutes long my initial thought was we would be talking a total swing rebuild but while there are some definite changes to make, none of them are that big on their own. I watched the analysis through twice, making some notes on the second time before starting. My notes basically break down into 3 areas: Set up; back swing; down swing. Today I spent 4 hours in the swing studio (then quit and did short game) mostly looking at set up but looking at the back swing changes a bit as well.

Out of the three basic set up changes (grip, axis tilt and square everything up) I found square everything up the hardest to nail. A grip change I can see, axis tilt through a slight hip 'bump' is pretty easy to nail but when I square everything up it doesn't feel square. I guess it'll take time to make it feel natural. I went into the house to use a full length mirror for a bit and I hope that helped. Having spent 4 hours today making sure I was square each and every time it'll be interesting to see where I naturally want to set up tomorrow and whether that's a bit closer to square. Let's hope so.

The back swing changes really just boil down to not pushing my hands away from myself at the beginning of the back swing and stopping the back swing way earlier at which point Erik said I was in a pretty good position (but it went seriously south from there!). Erik said it may feel like a 3/4 swing to me but in reality it felt like a half swing. Although I deliberately did my practice with my 'sim' kit switched off today just hitting into a blank screen (I didn't want to know where the ball was going or I'd just do what it takes to make it go at the target which would likely be counter productive part way into making swing changes) I hit some full shots from that position (or half shots from my perspective) with just the launch monitor on expecting to see a big drop in yardage. Truth is it wasn't there. 2 or 3 yards back from where I was when I was going twice as far back but no more. Launch angle was slightly down from before which probably bodes well for a better impact position when I work a bit more on the back swing changes and get onto the down swing work.

Very early days (or hours) but I've made a start and while the tweaks I've made feel different they don't feel 'wrong'. Hope that makes sense. I'll post some video in a few days when hopefully I have something to show but video of a bloke hitting record. walking forward into address, setting up, kinda standing there for a bit, walking back to the camera and hitting stop isn't going to win any awards for cinematic impact.

The day ended with a glass of red wine standing on the small balcony I had built on the side of the building that houses the swing studio (it's 2 story, bar and pool room is above the swing studio) looking out over the combined kids' soccer pitch / my golf pitching area and the fields beyond contemplating the day and the way forward from here. Next week starts tomorrow with early phys followed by short game with Jess in the morning and I'll hit the swing studio to continue this work in the afternoon.

**k14** · August 2, 2015

Great update Pete. I look forward to following your swing changes, make sure you keep us updated. Enjoy reading your posts!

**Nosevi** · August 2, 2015

Great update Pete. I look forward to following your swing changes, make sure you keep us updated. Enjoy reading your posts!

Thanks and will do.

**mvmac** · August 2, 2015

The back swing changes really just boil down to not pushing my hands away from myself at the beginning of the back swing and stopping the back swing way earlier at which point Erik said I was in a pretty good position (but it went seriously south from there!). Erik said it may feel like a 3/4 swing to me but in reality it felt like a half swing.

Another good video to check out for the backswing. I would recommend hitting balls with a tee or glove in your right arm pit. Keep that "pressure point" in front of the shirt seam.

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