Irons - regular or stiff

[sole wolf]

One of the final decisions I have in my new iron puchase is the shaft flex.

My old irons were TM LCG R80 graphite and I hit those pretty well (5i-185). but I ran into problems with my shorter irons, for instance my PW was generally about 125 but if I really smoked it clean I actually had a 155yd shot that still had the height to it, impressive to see but not what you want around the greens.

I am switching to steel shafts and looked through the archives and the only shaft flex threads I saw were for woods and drivers. I have about a 90mph swing speed and hit my driver about 275 with a slight draw, TM 580 with a 44in fuji vista pro shaft. I have heard flex has only to do about tempo and also speed so wanted to clear up the muddy water. Thanks

I did find this which does help some - CLICK

[iacas]

I have about a 90mph swing speed and hit my driver about 275 with a slight draw

No offense, but that's practically impossible unless you play on cement fairways. I swing at about 105 and my total distance is right around 275 under optimal conditions (launch, spin, smash factor).

If you're talking about 5I swing speed, obviously ignore the above. If your driver swing speed is around 90 MPH, you're probably in the R flex range. Right around the middle, in fact. Look at the Rifle 5.5 or even 5.0 if you want to go that route, or the lighter weight steel shafts. You'll get more control without totally hosing your swing speed.

[sole wolf]

none taken. My avg is probably closer to the 250 mark (little he-man attitude involved in the first post I guess) and have only had my swing speed measured a couple times. Could be a little off from my actual speed on the course. I am looking at the TM LT2 with the T Step 110-gram shaft in either the R or S.

Found some good deals with the S flex but would rather not spend the money then find out I picked the wrong flex. I have always been leaning towards the R

[iacas]

none taken. My avg is probably closer to the 250 mark (little he-man attitude involved in the first post I guess) and have only had my swing speed measured a couple times. Could be a little off from my actual speed on the course. I am looking at the TM LT2 with the T Step 110-gram shaft in either the R or S.

The R flex seems right. Better to think "swing smooth" than "I have to hit this ball hard" too.

Email me about pricing. I can find the LT2 in an R flex for you pretty inexpensively.

[JPsuff]

Wolf,

Flex is related to several things, but the most common thing is shaft loading.

The basic question you need to answer is: Are you a 'Swinger' or a 'Hitter'?

(OK, now that you've stopped chuckling, here's the deal)...

A swinger is someone who swings the club with an even tempo and a hitter is someone who makes an aggressive move to the ball from the top of the backswing.
An example of a swinger, (even though he has a powerful swing), would be someone like Freddie Couples. He generates a lot of power, but his motion is very smooth and very even.
A hitter would be someone like Tiger or better still, John Daly.

The difference is that a swinger evenly loads the clubshaft from the top of the backswing and gradually accelerates to impact. This even loading allows the clubhead to gain speed smoothly and then release almost automatically at impact.
A hitter severely loads the clubshaft from the top of the backswing, (actually even slightly before the backswing is complete), and then makes a very deliberate and forceful move towards the ball. This motion severely flexes the clubshaft and the release is primarily generated by the hands pronating quickly at the point of impact, (sort of like snapping a towel).

A smooth tempo generally requires a whippier shaft because the shaft itself is the main source of power, (the energy is stored in the shaft), and you need it to do most of the work. In a hard, hitting tempo, a too-soft or flexy shaft will cause the clubhead to lag too far behind the wrists at impact, often leaving an open face and producing a weak shot. A hitter's swing demands a stiffer shaft, (because his energy is stored in his arms and wrists more than in the shaft), so that the clubhead can keep up with the wrists at the point of release.

For a 90 mph swing speed, a regular flex shaft is usually the recommended shaft. However, if you are generating that speed aggressively then a slightly stiffer shaft migh be what you need. Sometimes, that can be addressed by tip trimming. Normally, most driver shafts are installed and trimmed to length by removing material from the butt end. But if you feel that a regular shaft is still a bit too whippy, trimming a half-inch or so from the tip prior to installation will stiffen the tip slightly, producing a sort of R/S flex. This gives you the advantage of allowing the shaft to still do most of the work, while allowing for a slightly more aggressive "snap" at the point of impact.

As for irons, control is much more important than distance - particularly in the short irons, say, from the 7 or 8 iron down through the wedges. Longer irons might still require a regular flex. It's not uncommon to see sets of clubs with stiff shafts in the short irons and regular flex shafts on the long irons and woods.

Lightweight steel shafts will offer less torque related issues while allowing for a full flex and graphite shafts can offer very light weight but keep an eye on torque specs to be sure that the tips aren't too soft.

Other things like swingweight have effects on flex as well. If you like a heavy clubhead, then that will force a shaft to flex more than a lighter clubhead. So, if you're testing clubs, for example, and find a shaft that feels good and performs well, but the club is, say, a D-1 swingweight, that shaft will feel more whippy if you take it home and add some lead tape to bring it up to, say, a D-5.

Lastly, to a lesser extent, shaft length also affects flex. If you like a standard length in your clubs, then choose a shaft which complements that length. But if you prefer oversized lengths, particularly if your extending them by an inch or more, then the club will feel more whippy as well so choose a shaft with that in mind.

A good clubfitter will address all of these issues with you and you can end up with a set of shafts, (either all the same flex or of varied flexes), which will serve you well over the long haul.

[iacas]

A hitter would be someone like Tiger or better still, John Daly.

I swear I'm not disagreeing just to be disagreeable. But I think John Daly is

clearly more swinger than hitter, and Tiger is also (though not nearly to the extent of JD). In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find many hitters on the PGA Tour. Even Nick Price, with his super-fast tempo, was a swinger. But if we call him a hitter, Tiger and JD are a pretty good distance away from him.

The difference is that a swinger evenly loads the clubshaft from the top of the backswing and gradually accelerates to impact. This even loading allows the clubhead to gain speed smoothly and then release almost automatically at impact.

I think that the transition is far more important. Every PGA Tour pro maintains a good angle and releases the clubhead very late. It's "lag" and they all do it (and they all do it a lot better than 99.9% of average golfers).

A smooth tempo generally requires a whippier shaft because the shaft itself is the main source of power, (the energy is stored in the shaft), and you need it to do most of the work. In a hard, hitting tempo, a too-soft or flexy shaft will cause the clubhead to lag too far behind the wrists at impact, often leaving an open face and producing a weak shot. A hitter's swing demands a stiffer shaft, (because his energy is stored in his arms and wrists more than in the shaft), so that the clubhead can keep up with the wrists at the point of release.

You've got the right general idea. A smooth transition typically requires a slightly weaker flex than one with a hard transition. Basically, it boils down to one thing: do you pause at the top? It's a little more involved than that, obviously, and I'm assuming you don't have a horrible cast or anything, but that's it in a nutshell.

For a 90 mph swing speed, a regular flex shaft is usually the recommended shaft. However, if you are generating that speed aggressively then a slightly stiffer shaft migh be what you need. Sometimes, that can be addressed by tip trimming. Normally, most driver shafts are installed and trimmed to length by removing material from the butt end. But if you feel that a regular shaft is still a bit too whippy, trimming a half-inch or so from the tip prior to installation will stiffen the tip slightly, producing a sort of R/S flex. This gives you the advantage of allowing the shaft to still do most of the work, while allowing for a slightly more aggressive "snap" at the point of impact.

Yeah, if you're between an R and an S, you can get there with tip trimming an R.

Other things like swingweight have effects on flex as well. If you like a heavy clubhead, then that will force a shaft to flex more than a lighter clubhead. So, if you're testing clubs, for example, and find a shaft that feels good and performs well, but the club is, say, a D-1 swingweight, that shaft will feel more whippy if you take it home and add some lead tape to bring it up to, say, a D-5.

That's a helluva lot of lead tape.

[neudi]

Yeah I hit my driver about 280, but my irons go a lot farther ( 7 iron usually goes about 180-190 and 3 iron about 250.) I am going to buy the true temper dynamic gold stiff shafts and put them in all my irons. But for a 90MPH swing speed, regular sounds just right.

[Old Tom]

'Sole Wolf' -

Some good info contained in the above posts, however, there's no substitute for getting out on the range and hitting balls with a few different flex options and seeing which works best for your swing.

Also worth considering: not all "stiff" shafts are created equal. That is, the Dynamic Gold S300 - for example - is a stiffer "stiff" than, say, the TT Lite XL, which is, I guess, 'stiff' by comparison to the R flex version of itself. If that makes any sense.

If you don't have the budget for a full-blown clubfitting, at least find a good pro shop that carries several different demo clubs and hit as many as you can beg or borrow. Find out what's right for you...

[muskegman]

Yeah I hit my driver about 280, but my irons go a lot farther ( 7 iron usually goes about 180-190 and 3 iron about 250.) I am going to buy the true temper dynamic gold stiff shafts and put them in all my irons. But for a 90MPH swing speed, regular sounds just right.

Forgive me... I'm awestruck!

90mph and a 190 yard 7-iron? 250 yard 3-iron?

[iacas]

Forgive me... I'm awestruck!

You got confused. He was talking about himself first, then the other guy.

And if he does hit his 3-iron 250, then he needs to get a driver fitting, because 280 out of a driver is at least 20 yards shy of optimal. Unless I know the person, I apply the 10% rule. Subtract 20% of whatever yardage they say they get. And half the time you're still overshooting.

[neudi]

Muskegman i don't swing at 90...that is the original poster...i believe my iron swing is somewhere in the range of 110...and as for my driver, right now we are having 20 mphwinds and it has rained so much that i get no roll so that is why it only goes about 280. By the summer when it is firm and not as windy i can get usually 20+ yards of roll for the driver.

[muskegman]

Muskegman i don't swing at 90...that is the original poster...i believe my iron swing is somewhere in the range of 110...and as for my driver, right now we are having 20 mphwinds and it has rained so much that i get no roll so that is why it only goes about 280. By the summer when it is firm and not as windy i can get usually 20+ yards of roll for the driver.

Oh! I need to pay attention next time.

[golfchief]

You better get your swing speed check using the swing you take to the course. Are you playing on black top? How far in the air you carring that driver? 275 at 90 dosen't compute under normal (not rock hard) conditions

[neudi]

Golf you got confused too...275-280 in the air with my swing speed...i think my driver is about 105-110...the 90 mph swing speed i was talking about was the original poster's swing speed.