Result of stiff and longer clubs -- my experience

[aedoue]

I'm not sure how to do this. Part of my post relates to the other thread going on, and part of it doesn't. We seem to resist hijacking vigorously here, so I'm opting for the new thread.

TMan, we never took swing speed into account except as an initial starting point to begin an evaluation. In our experiences, the ONLY way to make an accurate assessment of a player's needs is to have him/her actually hit balls with the different shafts. Ball flight and distance come into play, and there is absolutely NO WAY that someone can ACCURATELY fit you without seeing you hit the ball.

The majority of the industry still uses clubhead speed as the main variable in club fitting, but I can actually show you that two golfers who present the same time interval between club release and impact, the one with the higher clubhead speed actually gets a softer (lower frequency) shaft. I realize that this goes against the basic understanding of the majority of industry, but if you consider the notion that the player with the higher clubhead speed is actually getting more help from centrifugal force, then he would obviously require less help (softer shaft) from the shaft to return the clubhead to square at impact. I cover this in some detail on my blog

Thank goodness for these posts! I just went for an iron fitting. I don't know what my swing speed is, but hit my 7i 110-115 yd on a calm day. I was trying AP2's, and spinnng right and left all over the place, until the guy handed me a 1" over shaft. Then the distance increased a club or so, and they started going no more than a yard or two right or left of the flag. We left and came back to this shaft several more times, and it happened every time. It was a 75 g graphite, similar to the UST I have in my bag, but the green Aldila shaft. Stiff, because that's the only flex that was in the cart for 1" over.

The magic seemed, to the fitter, to be the 1" over, and perhaps it is. I didn't hit the standard or 1/2" over in any flex or weight nearly as well. He recommends the 1" over in a soft regular or regular flex. I know from experience that when the shaft is too soft I can't control direction, and it goes right and left. Having hit the stiff shaft so well, there is no way I'll order a set of regular without first demoing it against the stiff. I have to thank you for backing up what the ball flight told me with your more extensive experiences. To me, ball flight tells the truth. Here's the part that is off topic: Have you any idea why my accuracy would increase very significantly just because of shaft length? Again, stiff didn't help in the shorter shafts. I know that goes against common sense. I am 5'7", but have played with 1/2" over since the start, thanks to the ideology of my teacher.

[flanagan]

Thank goodness for these posts! I just went for an iron fitting. I don't know what my swing speed is, but hit my 7i 110-115 yd on a calm day. I was trying AP2's, and spinnng right and left all over the place, until the guy handed me a 1" over shaft. Then the distance increased a club or so, and they started going no more than a yard or two right or left of the flag. We left and came back to this shaft several more times, and it happened every time. It was a 75 g graphite, similar to the UST I have in my bag, but the green Aldila shaft. Stiff, because that's the only flex that was in the cart for 1" over.

1. You don't say whether you tried the exact same stiff shaft in a shorter length, so I don't see a legitimate apples to apples comparisons;

2. Based on your distances with your 7 iron, I would question the need for a stiff shaft, but in theory a stiffer shaft would result in less dispersion; 3. The extra distance you were seeing may have just been the result of the longer club and possibly a lighter shaft (not enough info) generating a little more swing speed; 4. 1/2" is a big difference in shaft length. If you are going 1/2 inch longer from what FITS you for length, I would seriously question that, and experiment with shaft combinations in the proper length for you.

[aedoue]

1. You don't say whether you tried the exact same stiff shaft in a shorter length, so I don't see a legitimate apples to apples comparisons;

Yeah, I need to clarify. Thanks for the interest.

1. I tried the soft and regular flexes in standard and 1/2 over for this same shaft. After seeing what I did with the 1" stiff, I tried the shorter stiff. Fell into the mediocre catetory with all the others. 2. Agreed. 3. Same Aldila shaft in each length. So distance expected to be due to length, not weight. 4. Well, isn't the one I hit with both max distance and max accuracy the one that fits? I know it's bizarre. I could call him and ask him to check the frequency of that shaft, but it felt stiffer than the regular, which felt stiffer than the soft. In the sense that the shaft felt solid, like I could tell where it was.

[TN94z]

Here's the part that is off topic: Have you any idea why my accuracy would increase very significantly just because of shaft length? Again, stiff didn't help in the shorter shafts. I know that goes against common sense. I am 5'7", but have played with 1/2" over since the start, thanks to the ideology of my teacher.

I don't know about that but I am 5'8" and just went through a club fitting and the last thing I would have thought would happen is that I was told that I need to add an inch to my clubs. We tested as you did, and with the longer 6i, I was hitting the ball very well! I was surprised.

[denver_nuggs_15]

If you shorter guys are standing upright, you probably should be fitted with longer clubs.

[flanagan]

I'm certainly not suggesting that the 1" is inappropriate for you, just that you've addressed all the variables in arriving at the conclusion it is, and I'm assuming your fitter has been giving you some input.

How low you hold your hands, how upright you stand, the length of your arms all play into it, for sure.

Gary Player was always one of the shorter guys out there, but he always made a point of letting people know he played longer than standard shafts, worked out well for him.

Am I right that the only comparison you haven't made is the 1" longer with the softer shaft he is recommending? If so, I agree you should definitely test that side by side with the stiff version if you can.

If you are getting good results with the longer and stiffer shaft, I would think you are generating enough swing speed to get a lot more out of your 7 iron than you have indicated, however.

Someone else will have to answer this one, I don't know: Other things being equal, wouldn't going with the 1" extra length effectively make the shaft perform less stiff, perhaps also being part of the explanation?

[BGPro]

In my opinion, the reason the longer club worked better is because the shorter club was probably coming in at impact very FLAT... meaning the toe was digging in more than the heel. By increasing the length of the club, you now have a new point at which the club bottoms out, and because it is farther away from you, it was probably more neutral or upright. Your height is NOT the determining factor in club length... it is the distance your knuckles (make a fist and hold your hands at your sides... the punching knuckles) are to the ground. That deals with ARM LENGTH. So... perhaps you feel more comfortable with shorter or "standard" clubs rather than 1" over, but the reason you hit the 1" over clubs better is because the LIE ANGLE was better for you. I would make sure you go to a club fitter and have him or her check your LIE ANGLE to see if it is correct... that is the second thing I test for when I fit someone for clubs. After the length is determined, then I go to the LIE ANGLE... and to be honest, sometimes you don't need new clubs at all... you just need yours bent to the correct angles.

I hope you can understand my rambling, and I hope it helps. Please, if you have any other questions or need me to clarify something feel free to drop me a line... I'm here to help.

[aedoue]

My hand to ground distance is pretty standard, but I stand fairly erect. Titleist said the shaft would play only slightly softer with the extra inch. The lie angle may well be making a difference. I tested 0 deg at 1", so wouldn't you expect me to need a lie adjustment for standard length? I do remember that the swing felt smoother, including before impact. That wouldn't be due to lie, would it? And that feeling that I knew where the top would be?

Thanks very much for your input. I've learned quite a bit.