Obama money.

[steve8820]

Disgusting........ No incentive to better yourself when big government is writing out checks. The world is full of idiots.....

[Lefty-Golfer]

yea but most of them mean well...they just don't get it. kind of like an old dog that keeps pissing in the house.

[Leftygolfer]

I have few words for how I feel about things in Washington. Wait I think I am puking.....That sums it up.

[Cussin hacker]

Politicians are all screwed up. If they are honest when their elected they won't be for long. Big money and lobbyist have way to much influance in how this country is managed. The left and the right are all guilty of slowly running the country in the ground. The US as we know it will not exist in another 50 years unless some sweeping changes happen soon to our political system.

[Shindig]

I am going to go out on a limb here and assume you considerably left of center at your club...

And... you're falling off the tree. See also: just about any political thread here. I hate loaded questions of any sort, so asking one is an easy way to get me angry. I'm pretty conservative, although I guess I use the word to mean something different from most people.

You see, I'm interested in what a politician does fiscally. When a president says that the era of big government is over, and actually reigns in spending and reduces the deficit and so on, it's something I can be happy about. Too many other people obsessed over the (D) next to his name.

To your last point of BHO being a moderate...I need you submit results of a valid drug test before I enter a conversation on that. I know you don't really mean it, you are just trying 6to sombody upset. Failed!!

I need to ask for more information before I can give a response: please place (in your opinion) George W. Bush on the political spectrum. I'm guessing you're trying to place President Obama as left of moderate, but if that's not the case, please correct this, too.

As I'll say many times, I'm interested in what a president does. And I don't see a leftward swing in the past 10 months' deviation from the Bush years. If we're looking at proximity on political maps, Obama's actions are looking a lot more like Goldwater values than Bush's, Bush's or Reagan's ever did. Of course, it's another issue entirely as to whether any of Goldwater's views would be welcome in the Republican Party.

To your first point (yea i am a little backward in writing these) The system is kind of simple...take risk, create jobs, collect wealth, rinse and repeat. If the nobody is out there taking chances and creating products there is not economy...it is called capitalism...neat concept. you ought to read up on it.

Actually, lowering the

nominal tax rate is a nice way to appear fiscally conservative to people who value form over function. The problem is that if government spending isn't also reduced, we end up with inflation. I'm not going to make up numbers here (since I am going off memory): the dollar lost some significant fraction of its value during the Bush presidency, something that didn't happen to anywhere near the same extent in the Clinton years. It has the same effect as a tax, and I treat it the same when evaluating a president's fiscal policy. This is called fiscal policy, or monetary policy, or sometimes inflation. Neat concept. You ought to read up on it. See, I'm interested in the spending power I have, not the nominal amount of dollars. Or we could all become billionaires, like they have in Zimbabwe.

Are you aware of how money works? Using randon numbers see if you can follow.

Not all tax changes result in more money for the government - both up and down. Clearly, a middle has to exist, given how much the government

can't take at both 0 and 100. Do we know whether lowering the current amount increases or decreases it?

[Supermanwoot]

Disgusting........ No incentive to better yourself when big government is writing out checks. The world is full of idiots.....

Agreed. Why not give breaks to people who obey the law, don't have 10 kids with 10 different dads/moms, and graduate with doctorates... oh wait because those people don't need/want breaks that would cost the rest of our country money.

I love how the budget deficit has tripled or more, bailouts went to everyone, yet my taxes are gonna be ridiculous and the unemployment line is only getting longer. The bailouts and stimuli clearly did little more than ruin my generation's chances of ever getting social security/medicare and the criminals and cheats are the ones who get the "breaks" I can tell you first hand I see MANY patients at the clinics/pharmacies I work at that have medicaid (the free everything healthcare for poor people) that drive Escalades and Mercedes Benz and they fill up our emergency rooms with people who can go for free and just want a pain pill to abuse or narcotic cough syrup to sip on. If you don't believe me you haven't worked in an ER. We had one person the other day saying he's not leaving until we give him a Percocet prescription. Its sad but I guess there is no way to root out the abusers from the people who legitimately just want some health care but cant afford it. The real poor people dont even have medicaid or wont accept it, its a shame... Thats my view, its just a sad world we live in! No democrat or republican or independent could fix the way things are and the greed everyone has been engulfed by.

[laxbballgolf]

Depressing thread...I agree with the independent thinkers on here. Washington is a tangled mess that is slowly dragging us down right now. Problem is, it's easier just to ignore it, especially because it seems so difficult to change.

You should watch the documentary IOUSA if you haven't seen it. Hopefully, we will get to be a part of a sweeping political regime shift within our lifetimes, rather than just an ongoing, short-sighted, lethargic, and mind-numbing battle between Democrats and Republicans.

[KillaK]

Depressing thread...I agree with the independent thinkers on here. Washington is a tangled mess that is slowly dragging us down right now. Problem is, it's easier just to ignore it, especially because it seems so difficult to change.

or I just could have quoted you...LOL

To your last point of BHO being a moderate...I need you submit results of a valid drug test before I enter a conversation on that. I know you don't really mean it, you are just trying 6to sombody upset. Failed!!

I bit on the first one but I'm not biting again - I use this site for golf not having this back and forth discussions where we each push our point and there is no chance of anyone changing anyone elses mind. I stopped having these type of meaningless convos back in college when I saw it gets both sides nowhere

I will say that it seems that a lot of conservatives yearn with nostalgia for the good old days back in 50's, when it was all so simple then, and this country couldn't be better. Without going into it I will say that the 50s were great for some people and not so great for others. America has changed since then, its not going to be back to the way it was - and I think the righty crowd has to get used to that fact and get over it. Or you can cry about it every night like Glenn Beck.

[Harry SasQuatch]

Agreed. Why not give breaks to people who obey the law, don't have 10 kids with 10 different dads/moms, and graduate with doctorates... oh wait because those people don't need/want breaks that would cost the rest of our country money.

You know better than that, it's the reason most wealthy old white guys vote republican. Ronald Reagan's "trickle down" effect has obviously sent the country into a slow economic decline and these "law abiding, monogamous relationship, doctors" you speak of will vote for anyone who claims to preserve their wealth. If these perfect citizens you speak of really cared about costing the rest of the country money they wouldn't take their labor oversees while sailing the Hamptons in their private yacht. The past thirty years has been about how much money the C.E.O's can make and hopefully it will trickle down to the little guys.

The right side has been in power and has done things their way since Ronald Reagan was president and will not go down without kicking and screaming now. There are ideas on both sides that are great but you can't deny the need to come together on these issues. Things have to change and this country needs to do a better job of working together, we've never been so divided by party lines. When this country was founded everyone was open minded and would work with each other to achieve a common goal and we changed a great deal on the way. Too much of the U.S. is still stuck on the "it's in the constitution, it's our right" mentality. Time changes, we've just been slower than the time politically.

[Leftygolfer]

You know better than that, it's the reason most wealthy old white guys vote republican. Ronald Reagan's "trickle down" effect has obviously sent the country into a slow economic decline and these "law abiding, monogamous relationship, doctors" you speak of will vote for anyone who claims to preserve their wealth. If these perfect citizens you speak of really cared about costing the rest of the country money they wouldn't take their labor oversees while sailing the Hamptons in their private yacht. The past thirty years has been about how much money the C.E.O's can make and hopefully it will trickle down to the little guys.

I think you might be a little off with your facts. The first time congress was controlled by Rep. was 1994 since before I was born. They control this country as much as anything. When the dems got control in 06 again look at some of the stuff that was passed. A big portion of the housing crisis came from them making banks give more loans. I didn't think 4.2% unemployement was bad and businesses doing well is bad. Growing the government isn't making our country stronger or more prosperious. The stimulus bill has done nothing to help our country succeed, cap and trade will do nothing but be a tax on our businesses/job creators and us as the people of this country.

Please enlighten us all about what needs to change? Should we be rewarded for hard work, having a job, employing people? I agree we need reform but that doesn't mean the big G has to run things. If you haven't noticed, the government waste so much money and does things so poorly. Look at medicare. There is so much fraud it is unbelievable. There is no accountablity. Do I really trust someone else with more of my money? I think not.

[steve8820]

I think you might be a little off with your facts. The first time congress was controlled by Rep. was 1994 since before I was born. They control this country as much as anything. When the dems got control in 06 again look at some of the stuff that was passed. A big portion of the housing crisis came from them making banks give more loans. I didn't think 4.2% unemployement was bad and businesses doing well is bad. Growing the government isn't making our country stronger or more prosperious. The stimulus bill has done nothing to help our country succeed, cap and trade will do nothing but be a tax on our businesses/job creators and us as the people of this country.

100% agreement here. This country is so great because everyone has the opportunity to make their own way. However, statistically speaking, people rarely achieve what they are truly capable of. I really hate when I hear someone bashing a CEO with a private yacht, etc. Almost as though it is criminal for someone to have worked hard and become wealthy. It is much more of a crime to be a parasite and live off government handouts for survival............

[Lefty-Golfer]

Part 1

In reguard to part 1. i don't need or want anybody to preserve my wealth. I came from nothing and earned every dollar i have the old way, i worked my ass of for it. I am and will continue to make more. I don't have problem paying taxes...but I am paying close to 50 percent now and some of you only want it to go higher...that is a problem.

Part 2 The country was founded on "its the constitution"...our founding fathers would laugh at what we have become. That may not be correct, they would overthrow the government...LOL they did it before!! Many of hem were ANTI government power...they would roll over in the grave if they knew the crap we now have. What made this country great is people that were willing to take a risk and be rewarded for it. People that do that and make it work should be rich!! They create the wealth, they create the jobs, they put people to work that can't do it by themselves....and they should be rewarded. Working hard, making money and employing people should not be looked on as a bad thing. Being a leech, petty, lazy and a drag on the country should be a bad thing. BTW I am still waiting on my stimulus check, how is that working out.

[Harry SasQuatch]

I think you might be a little off with your facts. The first time congress was controlled by Rep. was 1994 since before I was born. They control this country as much as anything. When the dems got control in 06 again look at some of the stuff that was passed. A big portion of the housing crisis came from them making banks give more loans. I didn't think 4.2% unemployement was bad and businesses doing well is bad. Growing the government isn't making our country stronger or more prosperious. The stimulus bill has done nothing to help our country succeed, cap and trade will do nothing but be a tax on our businesses/job creators and us as the people of this country.

I think you proved my point, in 1994 the house and senate both went republican. Our biggest economic boom was from after World War 2 until about ten years ago. If you noticed the democrats controlled the Senate and House for the vast majority of that time. Then all of a sudden in 94 the republicans get control and use "Reganomics" for 13 years and look where we are today. Two wars and eight years of blindly following Bush later we wonder how we got here today. Too many Americans can't look at it over a long period of time and start blaming today's problems on a president that hasn't been in the office a year. 4.2% unemployment isn't bad and I'm all for people having ambition to move up in society. If everyone got paid the same nobody would have any incentive to work hard. That being said, the C.E.O pay has increased 298% from 1995-2005 and the average worker's pay has increased 4.3%. Right smack in the middle of the republicans term of control in the Senate and House the C.E.O's are making a killing and we're still waiting for a "trickle down". Add in labor unions wanting $50 bucks an hour for a guy to screw lug nuts on a car all day at the GM factory (an example of course) and this country's industrial boom has all but gone away.

If I had all the answers I'd be running for office, I just know something needs to be done. If we do nothing it will continue it's course and spiral downward. We need to follow some other countries and be a little more progressive. Until the last 20 years or so we were the most progressive country on earth with industry, technology, and leadership. These days the majority of Americans are stupid and need government to tell them what to do. We're not the same America as we were when the constitution was written, those guys could easily think for themselves and be a step ahead of everyone else all the time. I wish we could count on all Americans to make the right choices and do what's best for the country but you know that's not happening.

100% agreement here. This country is so great because everyone has the opportunity to make their own way. However, statistically speaking, people rarely achieve what they are truly capable of. I really hate when I hear someone bashing a CEO with a private yacht, etc. Almost as though it is criminal for someone to have worked hard and become wealthy. It is much more of a crime to be a parasite and live off government handouts for survival............

See above: this country was great when we weren't so greedy and the people did what was best for the country. I can't hate on someone flaunting their wealth, they did earn it. But don't come asking questions as to why the American economy is going down the crapper after you took all the jobs and sent them overseas. Again a 298% increase in CEO pay is just inexcusable. It's pure greed, that same CEO would do fine with only a two million dollar yacht and a six million dollar house.

In reguard to part 1. i don't need or want anybody to preserve my wealth. I came from nothing and earned every dollar i have the old way, i worked my ass of for it. I am and will continue to make more. I don't have problem paying taxes...but I am paying close to 50 percent now and some of you only want it to go higher...that is a problem.

This country is running too inefficiently with the amount of funds coming in. Of course going to war doesn't help that.

Part two there is all good in theory until you make too much money and find ways to make more by outsourcing. The republican way of catering to the rich was great until everyone abused it. We have since gone from a industrial oriented country to a service and entertainment one. As I stated before; in this era there are too many stupid Americans that really need government to hold their hand and hope we get back in the right direction. We all really need to stop trying to do what hasn't been working the last 20 years, swallow our pride, and follow models other countries have set. China's economy is booming because of us. If you're a republican with an agenda I get that, I want the government to do what suits me and my lifestyle the best but I don't want the country to suffer because of it. If you're a republican who is only a republican because your dad, grandfather, great grandfather, and so on were then it's time to wake up. These are the people who think this country is the exact same great country as it was 250 years ago and start quoting the constitution when the topic of gun control, religion, or abortion comes up. The Romans were arrogant and resistant to change and you see where it got them.

[Leftygolfer]

We still are the greatest country in the world. The problem isn't you or I. I am tied to no party. I trust NOBODY in washington.

Are you forgetting Carter? Our country was in shambles during his presidency. The problems in our country are not the fault of anyone party. That is for sure. Look around you. For every lousy lazy hand out american there are 4 hard working ones who want to support there family and succeed.

Democrats don't have any solutions, but neither do the republicans. I hope some real leadership comes and not just a great speech.

[Lefty-Golfer]

I understand some of he points. i don't agree with them but I understand.

Can we agree that it is my opinion that you should help yourself in life and it is yours that government and society in general is responsible to take care of you?

[Shindig]

Can we agree that it is my opinion that you should help yourself in life and it is yours that government and society in general is responsible to take care of you?

I don't think anyone in this discussion has asserted the second point. It might make you feel good to say it, but it's not much more than a straw man.

Also, please learn to use the quote feature when responding directly to someone. This isn't an IM or person-to-person email.

[mctaylor22]

100% agreement here. This country is so great because everyone has the opportunity to make their own way. However, statistically speaking, people rarely achieve what they are truly capable of. I really hate when I hear someone bashing a CEO with a private yacht, etc. Almost as though it is criminal for someone to have worked hard and become wealthy. It is much more of a crime to be a parasite and live off government handouts for survival............

YESSS!! Wow, took the words right out of my mouth. CEOs didn't get the title because they had a magic genie--hard work and surviving a total cut-throat environment got them the seat behind the desk. So quit putting your hands out for your next monthly check.

[KillaK]

I understand some of he points. i don't agree with them but I understand.

You keep talking about these handouts that Obama is giving out - what exactly are you talking about? - can you be specific and name a few or are you more comfortable reciting retread right wing talking points?