PGA averages

[John Boy]

In 2005, I saw an article in a golf paper listing the low, average, and high golf statistic on every PGA Tour Player on virtually every statistic.

I rhought it was interesting, because they werent that impressive for the most part. It generally leveled out. The greatest putters hit the least greens. The worst putters hit the most greens.

Has anyone seen a report like this recently?

If so, please give the link. I know, most people will be surprised of just how good these guys really aren't. I am not taking anything away from them, but they are by no means magicians. They just excel where they need to and very few have the total package.

As I said, if found, please supply a link..

Thank You,

[RX Phoenix]

They find a way to get the ball in the hole!

What makes a pro to me is hitting a 3wood 265 15' from the pin on a 570yd Par5 . . . it's all about making birdie/eagle on the par 5's, they have the juice to get that done. I am always amazed at how well they can fit a 3wood into a hole. If you can't do that there is no way you can make it as a pro. There are plenty of people who can play golf well but you have to score on the Par 5's to have any chance of doing well on tour.

Look at Charles Howell last week at the Sony Open . . . he either birdied or eagled every Par 5 that week . . . except the final hole of the tournament when he needed it most, and lost by one stroke!

I agree that there are few statistics that tell the full story, especially putting because a missed green, chip, and a putt equal one putt stastically.

[John Boy]

I found some info for 2007...

I will list the lowest in averages...

Driving Distance - 238.4 yards (not too long, and they have firm
fairways)

Driver Accuracy - 28.6 % (about 4 out of 14)

G.I.R - 41.7 % (only 2 out of 5)

Putting average - 2.043 (over 36 putts per round)

Saves Percentage - 12.5% (1 out of 8)

[John Boy]

[QUOTE=RX Phoenix;38445]They find a way to get the ball in the hole!

What makes a pro to me is hitting a 3wood 265 15' from the pin on a 570yd Par5 . . . it's all about making birdie/eagle on the par 5's, they have the juice to get that done. QUOTE]


That is just the point I am trying to make...
Not all pros can reach PAR 5's in 2. In fact, most can't. PAR 5's are the money makers on any level, but the idea that the pros advantage is there length is false. Not all pros hit the ball far. In fact, if I remeber correctly, the average driving distance on tour for 2005 was about 280 yards or so. I think it was less than that. That leaves a mighty big 3 wood to a 570 yard Par 5. The other fact to consider is the quality of fairways the pros play on. I know for me, my home course is hit and stop. Even if I hit a stinger, I only get about 15 yards of role at most.

The only huge difference between pros and decent amateurs for the most part is there incredible short game. To be more specific, is their putting. While you are watching a tournament, check out there birdie conversion lengths. The average biride putt is probably around 20 feet or so. That means that if they made a 10 foot putt for birdie, they had to make a 30 footer to average 20 feet.

[RX Phoenix]

Interestingly enough I talked to someone today with good knowledge of the Pro game and he said that one of the biggest differences is the fairways the one's the pros play on are much firmer than what we are used to and they get quite a bit more roll.

I got an opportunity to walk on one of the fairways of the Champions Tour along with the players on the 18th and yes it felt very different than what I am used to. The grass was cut very short and the fairway was so firm it felt like it had been rolled.

This is another reason why they hit their 3woods so far. A lot of the time they can run it up on the green, and it's easier to hit a long 3wood off a firm close cut fairway than a lush soft one with higher grass.

[John Boy]

Couldnt agree more about the fairways. I have played some good courses, and there is a huge difference. Yet, the average still isnt that high. Most of these guys arent big ball hitters. That is my point.
I do not think I am a long ball hitter, but I think I hit it solid enough off the tee to be on tour. I know people who hit it better than me. It is all about the short game!!!

[RX Phoenix]

I would say that all of the pros do have extremely good short games and yes, if you hit it 280 you could be long enough to be on tour, but here is the question, could you win on Tour? That's the issue, the guys who are winning are capable of bombing the ball and reaching the par 5's in two.

Witness the Masters . . . you cannot win there these days unless you are scary long. Another huge issue is holding the greens, the big hitters are hitting 2-3 clubs less than the short hitters which means more spin and higher trajectory to hold the greens and get close to pins.

A great short game can compete, but it's an uphill battle now. At the seniors championship last year, I was there and saw that many of the seniors could hit it 300+. Big drives, especially if it was downhill, but even on flat holes, and there were definitely reaching the par 5's in two and making eagles.

On a shot makers course the shorter hitters can compete, YES, but the PGA is getting courses now that are very long . . . hmmm . . . maybe so that Tiger and Phil can have an advantage along with the other marque players??? Do you think the PGA wants unknown journeymen winning week after week? No, they want the big names to dominate, it creates a buzz, look at Tiger winning 6 in a row, there will be a huge buzz at Torrey Pines/Buick in a few weeks.

The idea was to Tiger proof a course by making it real long, but that only helps him, he's hitting 5Wood 285 pin high! Give me a break! But a course like Riviera CC brings other players into the mix a bit.

[John Boy]

I guess this is just a conversation. One I am enjoying. I do agree with you partially. The advantage is always for the big hitter that can keep it in play. My argument is whether most decent amateurs have what it takes to compete on tour, as afar as distance. The long hitters don't win them all, but mostly.
I do not believe PGA is choosing courses based on the length of our power hitters. It was brouhgt up a few years ago that courses would have to be made longer because of equipment and things like that. I still and never had agreed with that. My theory is to have lots of hazards seperating fairways, with really thick rough. Award the shot maker and not the bomber. I still think the big names would still be on top though. Phil, Jim, Vijay, Tiger, etc are just better ball strikers. There length is not what makes them great, it is just an additional thing that makes them better. They would dominate on any course.

[Clubswinger21]

In 2005, I saw an article in a golf paper listing the low, average, and high golf statistic on every PGA Tour Player on virtually every statistic.

If you havent already gone to PGAtour.com and look up players, there is a new feature this year which lets you select any player from a drop down list and look at there stats on a power meter from 0-10, I was surprised to see what i saw. It gives you a good insight as to who the more well rounded players are and who can just knock down a few puts when they have to. I do disagree that you have to be long to play on tour, plenty of short hitters won last year, Paul Goydos isnt long by any means. Augusta will have short hitters win there again, i gaurantee it. If youre a short hitter, and you have an excellent ball striking week and putt really well. anyone could pull out the win there, minus maybe corey pavin.

[niblick]

yeah, on tour if you make par on a par 5, you're getting absolutely killed in the field.

Look at the top 10 in each of those categories, and then compare those names to the top 10 on the money list. The important stats rise to the surface pretty quickly, and driving distance isn't one of them.

[BritBoy]

I don’t pay too much attention to the low end of driving averages other than it cool to see the numbers. It's only figuring the drives on fairways hit, and also doesnt take into account what club the player used.

If you want to make real sense of the stats you have to link a few of them together. If a player is low on the list of GIR he’s probably high on the list for scrambling and putting. Like wise if a player is high on the list for putting and high on the list for GIR you can bet he is up there on the money list too.

The stats I check regularly are GIR, and putts. It doesn’t matter if you average 310 off the tee but then miss the green. Given the option I would rather be 275 off the tee and hitting 80% greens.

Accuracy and consistency are what separate then touring pro's from others. Like RX Phoenix said, its hitting 3 wood 265, hitting the green with makeable putts that gets them where they are.

[John Boy]

Did go to PGAtour.com and found the same information. It is rather eye opening. these guys are good, but like I said earlier, they are not near as good as many people believe them to be.
This goes to everyone who wants to get a lot better and rather quickly. I brouhgt up that article because it changed my golf life. Here is my golf life broken down.
- May,2002 - Picked up first golf club @ 26 yrs old.
- Dec,2002 - Wife bnought me a set of Verdicts and I was hooked
- 2003 - end of year handicap of 20 or so
- 2004 - end of year handicap of 16 or 15
- 2005 - end of year handicap 0f 11sh
- 2005 - read article about how good pros are not and applied it to my short game more than anything.
- Dec, 2006 - end of year handicap of 4.1. I am proof that it is all about the short game. On top of that, I got lazy the last half of year. Short game, Short game, Short game...

I am not that great a ball striker. I throw in the occasional yank left or set up for a draw and hit a pull draw. The key is to survive from there. that is where short game is key.

Another quote I heard a couple of years ago is how pros only hit about 15% of there shots the way they intended to or saw in their mind's eye.

[RX Phoenix]

John Boy,
Played with a PGA pro a few weeks ago and he was a bit loose with his shots, but would chip from anywhere or get out of a bunker to within a few yards of the hole and a smooth stoke for par or birdie. So I would agree if you want to score its all about the short game, . . . but if you really want to enjoy your time out on the course I'd say ball striking and great driving is the way to do it.

Great work with your handicap, probably be scratch in a few years if you keep it up, it's those draws that can be a problem, I'm giving that up and just hitting a power fade.

[John Boy]

Thanx Doc, appreciate the compliment. I also appreciate your inputs. I have to agree with everything you are saying. There are days where I strike the ball well and don't score too well and I usually feel really positive about my experience. Other days, I seem to struggle from tee to green, but scramble my ass off and shoot pretty low. Even though the score is nice, I still feel better about a better ball striking day.

[supercow]

http://www.golftoday.co.uk/news/year.../shotlink.html
http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...cookintro.html

Feels good to know that even though we may kick ourselves after a bad (full swing) shot that our accuracy is not that far off of some of the best players in the world