Am I ready for players's irons?

[Danattherock]

Yeah man, they are easy to hit. The trajectory is amazing, the shafts having a role of course. I have always hit a very high ball. The trajectory with these Miura's is more penetrating. The feel is the big thing for me, pure butter. Hot butter. This is the first time I have ever been able to say that my clubs made me a better golfer.

-Dan

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by kctay

Number one, it wasn't condescending (I know what my intent was, I said it), it was a completely innocent comment based on observations made throughout my 40+ years of playing golf (no, I'm not an 11yo).  Number two it wasn't "everyone's" take either.  You started a feeding frenzy with "the new guy".  Apparently personal opinions are not encouraged here, but rather demonized, and distorted.

I still stand by what I said, furthermore, I don't think going to a forged iron will benefit the majority of high handicappers, that is my opinion based on playing with a variety of players.

Ignorance will be more likely tolerated than a lack of candor.

Perhaps with your 40 years of .... you should tell the OP what you think about his question.

I didn't buy my Miura's for your pleasure. Matters not what you think about them (or me).

This has become a distraction to the guys question and I apologize for my part. I was just showing him another option, something else to consider.

-Dan

[kctay]

Originally Posted by inthehole

I think everyone's take on your comment is that it came across as condescending, myself included.

Number one, it wasn't condescending (I know what my intent was, I said it), it was a completely innocent comment based on observations made throughout my 40+ years of playing golf (no, I'm not an 11yo).  Number two it wasn't "everyone's" take either.  You started a feeding frenzy with "the new guy".  Apparently personal opinions are not encouraged here, but rather demonized, and distorted.

I still stand by what I said, furthermore, I don't think going to a forged iron will benefit the majority of high handicappers, that is my opinion based on playing with a variety of players.

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by Dewdman42

After quite a few years with my Taylor Made RAC HT's, I'm finally ready for some new irons, mainly because I want better shafts.  Trying to decide whether I should get so called "Players's" irons or not.  I have found that when I try some of them out, they can feel great, but I'm not sure whether or not I will be killing myself on a bad day wishing I have some kind of moderate game improvement iron.  I know for sure I don't want or need extreme game improvement irons.

My hc is around 15, particularly iron play (around the green is my weakness at the moment).

I have spent the past few years heavily focused on trying to improve my swing, many lessons, many trips to the range.  And my swing has indeed improved a lot.  I'm not sure that penalizing my mis hits with harshness to my hands is going to make any difference to my improvement.  I'm already obsessed with practice and improvement.

Most of the time I am also not really trying to "shape" my shots, though occasionally I do attempt a draw or cut shot, most often not very successfully.  Is that because my RAC's just don't respond well to that? I also rarely get the ball to roll backwards on the green.  Is that where the players irons would reward me with good hits?  Are player's irons more likely to have consistent distance (assuming pure shots)?

I'm thinking of the Titleist AP1 or AP2, and also considering some kind of Mizuno or perhaps Taylor mades, but I don't like the Taylormade Burner frankenstein, too non-standard for my blood.  I want to get straight up irons with no special secret tricks....and particularly I don't want something designed to send the ball higher then normal or further than normal.  But perhaps a bit more forgiving on mishits then the full on blade.   I will be customizing the shafts in any case.

I would appreciate any feedback about player's irons versus GI irons, and perhaps some suggestions about specific models which are somewhat forgiving but still able to work the ball a bit.

Let's get back on topic guys.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Yeah man, they are easy to hit. The trajectory is amazing, the shafts having a role of course. I have always hit a very high ball. The trajectory with these Miura's is more penetrating. The feel is the big thing for me, pure butter. Hot butter. This is the first time I have ever been able to say that my clubs made me a better golfer.

-Dan

The only thing I can add is the "buttery feel" theory is in your head but that's ok if it gives you more confidence. If you have 2 different irons one cast and forged you hit them both solid you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I went from MP57(forged) to S57(cast) and the cast doesn't feel different, it's great when hit good and terrible when hit bad which was how my MP57s felt. Which is why I also think it makes no difference if you get forged or cast plus you got a nice a set enjoy them.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

The only thing I can add is the "buttery feel" theory is in your head but that's ok if it gives you more confidence. If you have 2 different irons one cast and forged you hit them both solid you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I went from MP57(forged) to S57(cast) and the cast doesn't feel different, it's great when hit good and terrible when hit bad which was how my MP57s felt. Which is why I also think it makes no difference if you get forged or cast plus you got a nice a set enjoy them.

This confuses me. It's well documented that 'feel' is over-whelmingly sound based and from a personal perspective the sound difference between cast and forged clubs is fairly easy to hear. That's also the reason Mizuno spend so much on creating the correct sound for their clubs.

You can even find demonstration videos of it:

[The Tin Man]

If forging has anything to do with scoring PING would be a trivia question, and Hogan would be Calloway's premier brand.

If brand XYZ were clearly superior to all the others what pro in their right mind would play anything else?

What makes me mad is when others try to pigeon hole somebody into a club without allowing them to even try to see if another club is beyond them.

[BugDude]

My experience I started out with a crappy set of irons.  They got me going, and I improved and learned with them to a point.  I felt I got to a point where I plateaued with what I was working with.  I then went to Ping Eye 2 irons and they helped me tremendously given where I was in my golf journey.  I got better spin, an ability to turn iron shots left, and to hit them high.  They improved distance and consistency in distance through the set compared to my old crappolas.  I, again, improved to a point and then felt I not only plateaued, but that the characteristics of the irons were hurting me.  Then I went to the Golden Ram Tour Grind forged muscle backs.  I actually bought them to practice ball striking with and then fell in love with them.  They helped me control trajectory and turn the ball either direction.  I gave up some distance to the pings, but as long as I know what distance I hit each iron what difference does it make what number is on the bottom.  I found it forced me to concentrate more.  As I am getting older, perhaps a set somewhere in the middle (much like the miuras shown above) would give me the best balance between both worlds.

So, based on my personal experience, I believe there is a lot of merit in the theory that you may reach certain plateaus with your irons and need to change in order to get to the next level.  Get a set and just start working with them.  Perhaps try just replacing the shorter irons at first and work your way into the middle and longer irons.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Yeah man, they are easy to hit. The trajectory is amazing, the shafts having a role of course. I have always hit a very high ball. The trajectory with these Miura's is more penetrating. The feel is the big thing for me, pure butter. Hot butter. This is the first time I have ever been able to say that my clubs made me a better golfer.

-Dan

Nothing wrong with owning beautiful things - Yamada putters, Miura irons. But let's not give them characteristics that one usually only finds in marketing gibberish, like the "Passing Point" mumbo jumbo from Miura  - God - what a thing to plough through. It's the same old cliches - "butter", "penetrating ballflight", "feel". There is not a club known to man that isn't at least two of these when hit in the middle.  The one I am ruling out is the "penetrating ball flight one". That is a function of power and the right shaft. Not something which is attributable to a club know pretty much as one of the most expensive money can buy. Those, along with the Yamada will get you some knowing smirks unless you have serious, serious game - but, hey, gorgeous things. Let's not try to quantify emotion, though. Especially that which accompanies a serious cash outlay.

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by BugDude

Perhaps try just replacing the shorter irons at first and work your way into the middle and longer irons.

That is what I did as well when I got three Miura wedges last year. Incredible feel and blew the vokeys and cleveland wedges I had been using out of the water. The difference in these wedges is what made me consider Miura irons.

Anyone that says a cast club feels the same as a forged club got ripped off. These Miura irons are ten fold better than the other irons (all cast) I have played. The feel at impact is totally different, butter as folks say, and it is day and night compared to the solid shots I have hit with other irons. I can't compare Miura to other forged irons, but there is a distinct difference to what I have played in the past (Callaway Big Berthas and X20 Tours). Apples to oranges.

-Dan

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Nothing wrong with owning beautiful things - Yamada putters, Miura irons. But let's not give them characteristics that one usually only finds in marketing gibberish, like the "Passing Point" mumbo jumbo from Miura  - God - what a thing to plough through. It's the same old cliches - "butter", "penetrating ballflight", "feel". There is not a club known to man that isn't at least two of these when hit in the middle.  The one I am ruling out is the "penetrating ball flight one". That is a function of power and the right shaft. Not something which is attributable to a club know pretty much as one of the most expensive money can buy. Those, along with the Yamada will get you some knowing smirks unless you have serious, serious game - but, hey, gorgeous things. Let's not try to quantify emotion, though. Especially that which accompanies a serious cash outlay.

I will speak of my irons any way that I please. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course. These irons are special and I don't expect folks reading my "gibberish" to understand or believe that. I could care less and hope you guys enjoy hitting what ever you own. Lots of great clubs out there. I found what I like apparently and hope the same for others. I don't buy irons based on how they look unlike many folks. I have owned just a few sets of irons (all used) in 20 years. I can't understand why it offends some folks that I am excited about the first set of new irons I ever bought and they are incredible. This thread is all stocked up on personality flaws. I had two Miura demo clubs sent to me, one was BUTTER, and I ordered a set. The penetrating ball flight must be effected by the club head. My X20 tours had Project X 6.0 and I hit them very high. The Miura demo had a tt stiff shaft and was more boring, but still high by most standards. The clubs ordered have Nippon super peening blue stiff shafts and they are in fact a penetrating flight. If the club head had nothing to do with this, why would the Project X 6.0 shafts be so much higher. Makes no sense to say the club head had nothing to do with trajectory. None.

-Dan

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Anyone that says a cast club feels the same as a forged club got ripped off.

The process by which they're made is pretty irrelevant. The actual steel used and the shape of the clubs matters, but the process by which that particular metal is formed into that particular shape is largely irrelevant. There have been tests and studies.

I currently have Miuras as well, and they feel great. No disagreement there. Just that if I were somehow able to replace your clubs with identical ones created by casting you wouldn't know.

[Danattherock]

And that softer steel can be cast and have the same performance characteristics?

If so, why does a forged club exist in the first place?

What is the benefit?

At what stage in the forging is the butter added?

That can't be done in casting I guess.

-Dan

[MiniBlueDragon]

Related thread here - http://thesandtrap.com/t/53872/how-do-you-describe-feel

[Danattherock]

Thanks for the link man, interesting thread.

Seems quite obvious that feel is a very subjective thing at best. Certainly explains why folks opinions on putters and irons vary so much. What one person considers "x" another perceives as "y". That being said, every "What is the best..." thread about golf is simply destined to become a Ford/Chevy or PC/Mac conversation. I will need some beer to continue enjoying this thread.

-Dan

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Danattherock

Seems quite obvious that feel is a very subjective thing at best. Certainly explains why folks opinions on putters and irons vary so much. What one person considers "x" another perceives as "y". That being said, every "What is the best..." thread about golf is simply destined to become a Ford/Chevy or PC/Mac conversation. I will need some beer to continue enjoying this thread.

More here too: http://thesandtrap.com/t/1358/master-forged-vs-cast-or-blade-vs-game-improvement-iron-thread .

Feel is something like 95% sound (and, arguably, the shaft and grip). Very little has to do with the clubhead.

[Danattherock]

Man, you got a great sense of humor

I don't need to read a 1,191 post thread to know that my Miura's feel great.

I could tell the first time I took them to the range.

Must have been the sound. The sound of butter??

In your Miura review, you mentioned the feel in your hands. I can see where sound matters a good bit, but like you, a lot of what I perceive as feel is also in my hands. The combination of tactile and auditory = feel? Yep, I can buy into that. Great review by the way. I had read that a while back when searching online for info about Miura in general. That is also when I found out Tiger and others have Miura irons with their sponsors (Nike, Titleist, etc..) logo on them.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/clubs/miura_cb-501_and_blade_2007_irons_review

"I've always been a fan of clubs that do a good job of transferring enough feel to my hands that I know where I hit the ball on the face. If I'm heeling the ball a little, I'd like to know, and both clubs do a fine job of sharing that feedback with me. The slightly softer feeling KBS Tour shaft helps to filter off any excessive vibrations and smooth things out, yielding what to me is the best of both worlds: precise information without harsh feedback."

-Dan

[Dewdman42]

I don't accept the premise that feel is only about sound.  I can DEFINITELY feel something really nice in my hands when I hit mizunos compared to other irons, off the shelf with no fancy shafts.  Does the sound contribute, absolutely but its not only the sound.  The vibration characteristics of the club are what influence the sound and undeniably would effect feel in your hand as well.

An awful lot of people have attested for years that forged feel better then cast, there is no point in debating how or why they feel better, but countless people seem to feel they do.  I suspect that the Miuras feel awesome to Danattherock because he never hit forged irons before.

Some of the arrogant comments from some of the folks on this thread are astounding.  Suggesting that high handicappers should find a new hobby is utter arrogance.  I'm dissapointed to see that kind of suggestion here.  Golf is for anyone and everyone that enjoys to wack the ball around the course, including ultra high handicappers.  And ultra high handicappers can use any clubs they bloody well please for any reason they prefer.